[Spoilers] Old Human Tourist: Empress of Azteca

[Grimace]

I'm not sure about the ethics of such a move, however. Though it doesn't appear to be explicitly against the rules, it seems to be the intention of the rules that do exist that communication simply not be possible. I'd maybe ask the lurkers (ahem) if they think the move is legitimate.

My read on it is that it would not be a violation of the letter of the rules, but could arguably be a violation of the spirit. I, personally, don't think it's a big deal. It's a scout. But I've noticed that some people on the board can be a little sensitive about such things. Were I asked in an official setting whether I thought it broke the rules or not, I would definitely say no.

[Fintourist]

Super quickly, I'm currently just mostly working and sleeping.

- That scout thing, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Gifting a concrete unit with the ability to get valuable info is completely different from sending iron-for-iron trade with some city gifts added in. However, I'm not sure whether this will work in practice and I'm fine with waiting for more lurker input and deciding when we have a clearance.

- The more I think it the stronger my opinion is: If dtay attacks pindicator we want to react. Even if the only thing we achieve is that dtay needs to tech Astronomy, build a navy and put rifles in every coastal city. That's still resources that won't be thrown against pindicator, who I fear will collapse way too fast given his Cyneheard campaign. Currently we still have the land position to win this long-term and resources to stop someone from reaching a winning position (or realistically try at least). I'm not comfortable at all with watching when dtay takes control of the continent north of us, that may lead into a position where we have limited options in 50 turns. If our neighbor position would be better we could make an argument that we try consuming someone else (as BGN I would do it), but with BGN, pindi and dtay being practically our only neighbors, we don't have that option. We could try to eat Cyneheard while pindi is busy with dtay and divide the northern option with dtay, but it seems problematic. We are behind in schedule when it comes to that and if dtay's attack is a slam dunk, we just find ourselves in a position where dtay controls the eastern half of the continent and pindi+Cyneheard turtle in a bunch of cities in the western half with decent stacks of warm bodies.

- Based on current info I think dtay attack is reality, he gets Rifling in 2, upgrades a bunch of units and strikes, let's say in 5 turns. This means that we need to attack him asap, if we give him 15 turns, dtay has taken hindu shrine + other good stuff, pindicator is demoralized and we find ourselves staring at rifles in every coastal city (dtay must understand that attacking pindicator is an invitation as well) --> Consequently, I think our attack date should be T170 (+/- 1 turn), which means that preparations need to start immediately

- Based on above, let's raze that D'oh next turn and start immediately moving our troops towards east. I think we need to take Astro on ~T166/167 and unload first troops immediately so that we get everything into position.

- Regarding current turn: I think we should consider switching our research to Gunpowder. That tech already has maxed out known-tech bonus and we can probably finish it with break-even research or even less (it's not an enormous commitment away from the economy path, but keeps the military beeline alive). If it comes to dtay attack, I have to say that our Democracy path is a mistake, as much as I would love having SoL. If we do the attack, let's do it properly. With our current gold reserves + GS, we might be able to tech Astronomy+Gunpowder+Mil Trad + RP + Rifling in ~ 9 turns (need to calculate that properly, but pretty quick anyways). If we have already some cuirs when we boat and the ability to upgrade our troops to Cavs more or less immediately after our alpha strike there is a chance that we can actually keep ~half of captured cities. With just knights and being >5 turns away from Rifling it does not sound too realistic or at the very least we need to count on pindicator/krovice achieving something.



EDIT: Yeah, Englebert switch sounds good, I don't like building navy in Marmalade as the city is visible to dtay, let's use the whip in other places.

EDIT2: Reducing our EP spend to dtay is fine, but we want to keep that city visibility. We want to know where his troops are located and what kind of defenses cities have when we attack

[Old Harry]

Super quickly, I'm currently just mostly working and sleeping.

- That scout thing, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Gifting a concrete unit with the ability to get valuable info is completely different from sending iron-for-iron trade with some city gifts added in. However, I'm not sure whether this will work in practice and I'm fine with waiting for more lurker input and deciding when we have a clearance.

I think people's issues are with using numbers or letters and city gifting, not with unit gifting, so I'm inclined to go ahead unless someone feels really strongly about it.

- The more I think it the stronger my opinion is: If dtay attacks pindicator we want to react.

Even if it turns out not to be the totally optimal play for us it is the fun one . What do you think would happen if we offered Pindi a defensive pact? It would probably give dtay too much warning that we were up to something wouldn't it?

- Based on current info I think dtay attack is reality, he gets Rifling in 2, upgrades a bunch of units and strikes, let's say in 5 turns. This means that we need to attack him asap, if we give him 15 turns, dtay has taken hindu shrine + other good stuff, pindicator is demoralized and we find ourselves staring at rifles in every coastal city (dtay must understand that attacking pindicator is an invitation as well) --> Consequently, I think our attack date should be T170 (+/- 1 turn), which means that preparations need to start immediately

I think he has a bunch of cash on hand still, so may be able to upgrade and attack t166... I think that means he can hit the Shrine t168 .

- Regarding current turn: I think we should consider switching our research to Gunpowder.

Gunpowder will obsolete our Astro bulb, so we could get it 99% complete this turn, part-bulb Astro next turn, then complete GP and overflow into Mil Trad/RP/Astro/Chemistry (frigates could make our fleets safer). Alternatively we pop the bulb this turn and complete GP?

I don't have a problem detouring here as part of the reason for getting Constitution-Democracy-Corporation is Representation and our Golden Age is still about fifteen turns away.

EDIT: Yeah, Englebert switch sounds good, I don't like building navy in Marmalade as the city is visible to dtay, let's use the whip in other places.

EDIT2: Reducing our EP spend to dtay is fine, but we want to keep that city visibility. We want to know where his troops are located and what kind of defenses cities have when we attack

I'd hope that one galley in Marmalade wouldn't be enough to worry him, but you never know... The problem with other places is that three of the best ones, Kirby, Gertie and Cornelius are all on important tasks already - Gertie and Cornelius could delay their universities I guess. That just pushes Oxford back a bit further. Upland Cress could whip a Galley to queue-upgrade, Englebert could produce a Galley then a Galleon, Cornelius could whip a Galley to queue-upgrade, Gertie could produce one boat (G or G), there is a Galley just west of Upland Cress that can upgrade and join up too. That makes six Galleons up north.

Down south we don't have a problem, Rocky, Nina and Izzy can all pump boats out. Six sounds about right, but more might be necessary...

In the middle Hazelnut can probably produce a couple of boats in between Knight builds.

Unit mix:
- Up north with six Galleons I think we should have ten Knights (or Cuirs - at least half Amphi), four Maces and four Pikes (Amphi if possible).
- In the middle with two Galleons it depends what dtay defends with, but it looks like he's getting Oromo warriors in place, against which Knights or Cuirs are going to be most effective.
- Down south we want to land our expeditionary force, as far from his stacks as possible. With perhaps six galleons we should be able to land 18 Knights (or Cuirs) to rampage through some very lightly-defended territory. Do we want to bring a cat stack too to provide collateral, or would they be too exposed to counter attack? Pikes would be handy for stack defence (although perhaps they don't defend Cuirs?)

If we can get some Rifles and they will be better than Pikes or Maces, although Grenadiers are excellent for Amphibious attacks against an opponent with Rifling and Mil Sci gives Commando, which we'll have one to three units capable of taking... A commando raid to destroy the Jewish shrine would just make my day...

I think we're likely to get the second half of the turn timer as dtay plays very early. Since he's in Caste (I think) anyway that doesn't really hurt him and he gets to use promotions.

[Old Harry]

Tech path
Astronomy, Gunpowder and Mil Trad for Galleons and Cuirs is a given. Then I think we have a choice:
- RP-Rifling-Chemistry for Cavalry, Rifles then Frigates
- Chemistry-Mil Sci-Steel for Frigates, Commando units, Grenadiers and cannons
Depending on how many Commando-eligible units we have once we're done with Azza I think the Mil Sci path could be more productive for a surprise attack. Wilfork, the Jewish Shrine is currently empty...

Our tech rate can be more of a surprise with the first path - we can part-research Astronomy, Gunpowder, Mil Trad and RP then cascade through Rifling and Chemistry...

[Fintourist]

Again super quickly,

I like it all very much Feel free to go ahead and develop us perfect logistics to support our evil plan

- especially: very good catch with gunpowder obsoleting our Astro bulb, we might almost do the bulb already so that we don't screw up
- In south we don't necessarily need so many galleons, dtay's southern cities could fall with very little effort and we need our troops more in north/middle where we might want to fight back his first counter-attack (if we are strong enough/dtay is weak enough). EDIT: if we have enough units to our northern force + for 6 galleons in the south + other important duties, I'm fine of course with this too
- In north 6 galleons sounds nice if we have time to produce + stage so many. There we have more cities that we would like to capture/raze with our initial declaration
- Couple of cats would be very useful and allow us to create some kind of a stalemate where we can destroy dtay's counter-attack stack if needed. First priority is of course units that can actually take cities with emphasis on 2-movers as getting those cats into right position at the right time might be impossible/need luck against Cavalry that moves 6-tiles per turn.

I'm looking forward to this It's getting close to the point where I'm disappointed if dtay does not attack even though we would very much be gifting BGN his early Christmas present

[Ituralde]

I'm looking forward to the detailed screenshots that show your attack plan against dtay in all it's glory!

[Fintourist]

OH's post from the last page shows the basic idea and if you look it carefully you can see some signs that indicate forking tiles, which gives you an idea what might be the follow-up. Currently just having those Galleons and ~20 units in right places would be enough to raze/capture up to 14 cities during the first two turns of war before dtay can react, but as soon as dtay gets Optics and/or starts adding oromos/rifles in coastal cities that number will go down.. Well, we'll see how things develop during the next couple of turns. OH typically enjoys making updates that include war planning, so

[Ceiliazul]

No problem with the scout gift. Also

[Old Harry]

Questions:

How much cash does dtay have? 1216 - so actually he'll have to save cash to upgrade the Knights, meaning attack t167 or 168.

Where is dtay's HE city? It's Mankins. Mankins and Wilfork (the Jewish holy city) are both six tiles from a city that our Galleons can move into first turn of the war, so if we had two commando Knights things could be amazing...

What's happening with unit logistics?
In the south things should be easy for a t171 attack (its t163 right now).


In the north they are a bit more tenuous for a t171 attack. If dtay doesn't get Optics then the Galleon from Upland Cress (built eot165) will only just be able to hit Regatha. Englebert is going to have to produce the majority of our boats, unless we put the oxford plans on hold and switch Gertie and Cornelius to boats?
If dtay gets optics then we need a five-move galleon to move into the city we haven't uncovered yet (orange line), which will need to sneak round from Hazelnut.



Which tech did you select?
Gunpowder is 2587 beakers and we can complete it at 30%
Chemistry is 4657
Mil Sci is 6037
Steel is 8452
Mil Trad is 5175
RP is 4657
Rifling is 7245
Astro is 4312

So I put us on Mil Trad at 100% - which looks like it gets us about 4000 of the 5175 beakers. t164 we can complete Mil Trad with overflow. t165 bulb and complete Astro. t166 complete Gunpowder. t167 we'll have lots of overflow so could possibly complete Chemistry or RP. Then t168-170 we could complete Rifling or Mil Science. Depending on how many commandos we can make I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Fintourist]

For future:

Boldly was soliciting Wed-Fri subs, I'll be able to help if nobody objects (if you do mind, feel free to PM if you want it private).

Hey, it'd be fairer if he retired to AI for a couple of days

(no real complaint from me, but I'm probably not the one who would have a problem...)

The timing is good from my end. Those who would have had a problem...are no longer a problem. But if you want to give me a lot of cheap unit upgrades, I'm good with that.

I hope BGN this is not what you really believe, you would be getting useless anarchy turns and not free upgrades..