[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?

[Whosit]

Going back into sandbox, noticed my sandbox has a lower city maintenance than the real game. Hopefully I can fix that if I am able to make a new sandbox with correct dimensions? I'm guessing City Maint is based off of actual land tiles in addition to difficulty.

[Whosit]

Hey, Gavagai? If you're around, could use input on sandbox. Here's what I tried first time:

I played out to nearly turn 60. Hopefully these moves make sense, but you can always play along in the sandbox. I don't discuss military movement at all, but I tried to send Warriors out to sentry/fogbust positions as early as I could. Might also help make contacts, depending on where players send their scouts. I feel that I made fairly good progress on improvements, but expansion is slow (and I forget that AH allows improvement of Ivory, so that might have been delayed too long).

Micro Plan
T26: Worker finishes road by capital.
T27: Worker starts road 1E Corn.
T28: Whip Settler (Stanford, 2-pop).
T29: Stanford (Settler > Worker), Worker 1T road Corn, Settler moves 1S Corn.
T30: Agriculture > Pottery, Settle City (Wendy Corduroy), Worker Farms Corn, Warrior sentry scouts?
T31: ---
T32: Standord (Worker > Warrior), Worker moves 1E capital, farm grassland.
T33: ---
T34: ---
T35: Stanford grows to 3, (Warrior > Warrior). Micro Capital to work Ivory instead of Mine (if decreases time on Pottery), Wendy Worker moves 1SE to forest.
T36: Wendy Worker chops, Micro Standord to work Farm instead of Ivory.
T37: Stanford Worker moves 1NW to forest.
T38: Pottery > Animal Husbandry?, Stanford grows to size 4 (Warrior > Granary), Wendy swaps from Warrior to Granary (chop finishes). Stanford Worker chops.
T39: Wendy Worker moves 1S, cottages floodplains,.
T40: Stanford Worker finishes chop, Wendy grows size 3. Micro Stanford works Ivory instead of Mine, Micro Wendy work Mine instead of forest.
T41: Stanford grows to size 5, Stanford Worker moves 1NW to forest.
T42: Whip Stanford (Granary 51/60, 1-pop), Stanford Worker chops. Wendy: 10/26 food, 30/60 Granary.
T43: Stanford (Granary > Settler), Wendy (15/26 food, 34/60 hammers).
T44: Whip Wendy (20/26 food, 38/60 hammers) this provides 9 overflow to finish the 8/15 Warrior, Wendy Worker moves 1NE to forest.
T45: Forest Worker chops to Wendy, Stanford Worker moves 1SE starts road.
T46: Animal Husbandry > Archery?, Wendy (Warrior > Worker).
T47: Stanford (Settler > Warrior), Stanford Worker moves 1N builds road.
T48: Worker finishes road, Settle City (Soos) starts Granary, Wendy Worker 1 turn Cottage.
T49: Stanford grows Size 5 (Warrior > Worker), Wendy (Worker > Warrior?), Wendy Worker 1 turn cottage, Soos Worker moves 1NE, new Worker moves 1NE, 1SE, cottage.
T50: Archery? > Mysticism?, Soos Worker 1E (copper), Wendy Worker 1NE, 1N, Micro Wendy works grass cottage instead of Mine, Micro Stanford works Mine instead of forest plains hill.
T51: Worker moves 1N to sheep, pastures, Copper Worker mines, Cottage worker moves 1SE (heading towards ivory).
T52: Worker moves 1SE to Ivory, camps.
T53: Stanford (Worker > Settler), New Worker moves 1SW to forest hill, Micro Stanford to work Plains Hill Forest instead of Mine, Micro Wendy to work Mine instead of Grass Forest.
T54: Mysticism > Fishing?, Stanford forest worker Chops, sheep pasture and copper mine finishes (Wendy Warrior 1turn to finish, will probably convert).
T55: Wendy Warrior converts to Spearman (5 turns), Sheep Worker moves 1NE (forest hill), Copper Worker moves 1S to floodplains, Farm. (Unit costs now at 1).
T56: Soos Forest Worker chops, Stanford chop finishes to Settler (2 turns, could 2-pop whip), Ivory worker moves 1NW to hill.
T57: Fishing > Writing?, 2 Stanford Hill Workers mine (do not know real 4th location, should probably have micro'd for road).
T58: Stanford (Settler > Axeman), Wendy whips Spear > Monument, Settler moves to ?, Stanford Mine finishes, work instead of plains hill (growth in 2 instead of 3).
T59: Wendy (overflow completes monument in 1 turn), ?????

And then I made some changes. My new notes are pretty messy, though. Basically, I wanted to see what would happen if I made a 3rd Worker earlier. My results is that the 3rd city was settled 1 turn faster, though the 4th settler was finished a turn later (I bet that could be improved with some work, though). I also got more Warriors by the time Copper finished, more chops, more cottages placed (We had our first TWO cottages turn 43, and Five cottages running by turn 60). We had 9 Warriors and... 5 Workers I think. Anyway, I hope you can make sense of what I did, but I'm gonna wait to see if you have input, otherwise I'll just go ahead and play the turn tomorrow morning and go ahead with my new moves. (I don't bother building that grassland farm, btw.)

T32: Stanford Pines (Worker > Warrior). New Worker moves 2W to chop.
T35: Stanford (Warrior > Worker). Chop finishes (2 turn Worker).
T36: Worker moves to N of capital to chop.
T37: Stanford (Worker > Warrior). New Worker moves 1 SW to chop.
T38: Pottery > AH. Wendy (Swap to Granary to get chop).
T40: North Worker moves 1N, Cottage. Wendy takes grass mine, Stanford works forest.
T43: Both cottages complete. Stanford works cottage (slows Settler).
T44: Whip Wendy. Worker moves 1S and 1turns road.
T45: Whip Stanford (Settler). Worker moves 1E capital, 1T Farm(???). Worker moves 1N and roads.
T46: Stanford (Settler > Warrior); Wendy (Warrior > Warrior). 2 Workers finish roads.
T47: Stanford (Warrior > Warrior) New City (Soos). ((I tried to edit in extra units to try to approximate appropriate costs, but I think that I went way off so I doubt tech times in sim will be accurate.)) Juggle cities to work all cottages.
T48: Stanford (Warrior > Worker).
T49: Swap Wendy to Mine to finish Warrior before Copper connects (yes or no?).
T50: Wendy (Warrior > Worker). 9 Warriors total!
T51: Copper Workers 1S, Farm
T52: Stanford (Worker > Axe); New Worker goes to sheep. 1 pop whip Wendy Worker.
T53: Wendy (Worker > Archer). New Worker 1E Cottage. Ivory Worker (oh yeah I improved ivory... depends when AH actually finishes) 1N Cottage.
T56: Swap capital to Settler...? Size 5.
T58: Chop goes into Settler.
T59: 2 pop whip Settler.
T60: Settler completes.

[Whosit]

OK, here's some images from turn 31, and some from turn 32 (not yet complete). I'm not sure how to move against the Zulu.

So they've seen the scout since last turn due to culture on mountain. Warrior moving to intercept?



Based on civ stats, Caledorn was only to get a tech, so I think they got Hinduism.



Met the Romans... somehow.



Demos...



So I'm gonna run some combat sims, but pretty sure the Combat I warrior has odds, even attacking across river to forest hill. Besides, could be another Warrior in fog. Is it worth seeing what looks to be their second city? It definitely looks like the Warrior is advancing to snipe the scout, though.



Hoping this Warrior survives the wilds, especially with that Panther out there somewhere. Probably going NE next turn, unless that lion moves SE....



Just using this to help me line up the new sandbox map.



So, Gav, if you check in sometime today, in addition to micro, would also like to know what you think about scout movement.

[Whosit]

It looks like that Warrior would have 68.1% odds to win if the Scout moves to that forested hill across the river. So it has odds, but I'm not sure if those are good enough odds that they'd want to take the risk.

[Whosit]

Gav, I've completed a new Sandbox map, updated to Turn 31. I'm going to e-mail it to you. It is toroidal with the proper dimensions and I've updated the terrain with what we know (though I have left out the zulu so far). Hope to hear from you soon.

[Whosit]

Shoot! I just realized I made a big mistake in the sandbox I sent! I accidentally left the lake around Wendy Corduroy too small, so it's fresh water. That means the Sandbox work I just did is invalid. Fortunately, you can just got into WB and add some water tiles. The Corn farm hadn't finished so no real problem at turn 30.

[Whosit]

Also need to think about 4th city spot. I am actually kinda thinking about a spot to the south, along the coast to get that crab. I know we want the gold, but I feel like the best spot for the gold would be 1E. It would be coastal and WB says it could get a lighthouse. That means with border pop it would get 2 freshwater lakes and pigs. However, 3rd city would have to pop borders first so the gold city could work the wheat I think. Or... y'know, we just settle pigs first ring. That's probably the best call, because as nice as those 3 food lakes would be, probably not worth having to wait for the border pop. After all, it looks like our Copper city is going to be a slow starter, not even getting access to its food tiles until a few turns after it's settled.

[Whosit]

Alright, well I guess I'll be playing. I have given it some thought and I think I'm going to take the risk. My reasoning is: The scout may very well die in a few turns anyway. Maybe he'll land next to a bear. Maybe a barb Warrior will appear. This is a guaranteed chance to get some valuable scouting info. If the zulu do kill our scout, it will slow down our map scouting and meeting other civs, yes, but at least we can get vision on one, maybe both, of their cities.

It also occurred to me that people might think I'm trying to play the clock? Because I realized I could double move (but not actually since Caledorn hasn't played yet). So that's moot, but either way I thought it would be fair to give team Zulu a chance to attack if that's what they want.

[Whosit]

Pictures from the end of T32:




So this is valuable information, I think. They have 2 Workers, which let them hook up their 2nd city's food resource already (ours has a while to wait). I'm willing to bet they went 2 Workers before Settler. It might be they only have that single Warrior right now. They have a cows in their capital's BFC, which isn't really a surprise since the starts were so similar for most players.




I'm kind of concerned about whoever has the 15 food and 14 production (well, they could have a higher food count, but they have at least 15). It looks like the largest civ has a combined population of 5 (3 capital, 2 second city!).




I just snapped an image of the north to help us get an idea of where to settle.

[Whosit]

So this is an idea, but it's pretty tightly packed, and we might want to settle the Pig/Sheep city before the Gold city. Not really sure if this is a good settlement plan, but it's what first comes to mind if I could do things ideally. Personally, I'm not too worried about grabbing the Gold super fast. It's a strong tile, yes, but by the time we settle the city we'll already have several developing cottages, so the commerce from the gold won't be as significant as it would be if it was at our second city, for example. We also aren't in a hurry for the happy due to being CHA. Anyway, just an idea.