[SPOILERS] Will the Sun(rise) Ever Set on Washington, Mongolia?

[Whosit]

OK, gonna respond to a few things.

1. Will have to try out your suggestion for worker moves. I think I tried that, but maybe I didn't. I guess 4th city doesn't even need a road connection for the TR because it has in-borders coastal connection to Soos.

2. Finishing FP Farm sooner is probably better. I also plan to get the city a grassland farm at some point.

3. I will start cancelling Worker actions every turn. Guess that's a good habit to be in.

4. I think that roading to the pig/sheep city is important, both for TR and for defense. I do think I see what you're getting at with the road route. From the wheat, going NW, NW, NW would be better. Only 1 tile of difficult terrain to go through.

5. I have kept in mind trying to get at least 2 Workers on Pig tile to start pasture same turn as founding, but so far my micro has not been up to the task. I'll see what I can do.

6. Not entirely sure if pre-chopping would be worth it, especially if I'm going to be growing the capital earlier than I originally planned (need more workers down south).

7. I see what you're saying about the south crab city. I guess I just don't like it. Actually, regarding that location, I originally wanted it 1NW of the Crab, and Gavagai suggested the spot 1W of it. What do you think? Merits of the 1W Spot is fresh water bonus and it can grab a lake tile. Merits of 1NW is closer to capital and can work two riverside tiles.

I think you're helping. You are certainly a better player than me, and at the very least this level of engagement means thinking things out more and considering other options. The general vibe I'm getting is to play to CHA more and grow cities taller. By the way, regarding whipping, should I worry about whipping off cottage tiles? I try to whip off mine tiles to keep cottages growing.

Also, updated sandbox (think that's the right file).

[Whosit]

Also this really helps my post count! :P

[Whosit]

Not sure if you can make sense of this mess, but I did another try:

Outlines following your suggestions....

T59: FP Farm Completed. 2-Pop Whip Stanford Pines Granary (12/24 food after whip).
T60: Stanford (Granary > Axe???); Wendy (Worker > Monument); Horse Pasture Finish (Soos work); @ Dipper use 1 Worker to move to forest (don't need to finish pasture this turn); 2 FP workers put a turn into Farm S of Soos; New Wendy Worker builds cottage.
T61: Worker pair builds cottage for Stanford; Worker @ (0,5) go to... (0,4).
T62: Soos (Archer > Barracks) Will just put another turn into it so it grows; Worker at (0,4) Chop; Stanford work new cottage; Dipper Horse Worker Move 1S Cottage (stop).
T63: Swap Soos to Settler (7 turns); 2 Stanford Workers build another cottage (1,0); Dipper Worker Finish Cottage.
T64: Stanford (Axe > Spear); Stanford Work new Cottage; Whip Dipper (Granary); Wendy Worker build new Cottage; Soos chop finish; Dipper Workers each put 1 turn into cottage 1N of city.
T65: Dipper (Granary > Monument); Stanford workers build new cottage; Dipper Workers Move to (2,7) Road; Worker at (0,4) Move to (0,3) Farm.
T66: Stanforf works new Cottage; Dipper Worker pair moves 1W Road.
T67: Wendy (Monument > Settler 11T) & work new cottage; Worker pair Moves 1NW; Stanford Worker Pair Road (0,-1)*
T68: Stanford Worker Pair Beelines Pigs*; Wendy worker move to forest (-5,-1).
T69: Dipper (Mysticism > Work Boat?); BLARGh. Workers road to City 5, 2 Pair Finish plains farm....
T70: Stanford (Spearman > WB); Farm pair moves towards Pigs; Road pair move back, 2 turn chop into forest...; Worker at (0,3) Move to (0,0); Soos grows on Barracks?.
T71: Settle Mabel Pines (Granary); 4 Workers improve Pigs this turn; Worker at (0,0) Move to (-1,-2) Road.

Units: Worker 6, Archer 1, Warrior 7, Axeman 2, Spearman 2
Demos: GNP 42 (100%); Prod 27, Food 69
5 Cities, 21 Pop Points

*Probably inefficient actions.

Settler
T63: 0/100 +15 Roads (0/6)
T64: 15/100 +35
T64: 50/100 +15
T65: 65/100 +15
T66: 80/100 (road 2/6)
T67: 95/100 +15 (move to forest)
T68: Complete Road (4/6 - ideal)
T69: Arrive (ideal) Road completes (6/6)
T70: Settle

ARGH I was a turn off with settler, all a turn later.

Going to T80....

T72: Stanford (WB > Worker); @Mable, 1 Worker to Sheep, 1 to each Forest, 1 go back to Dipper to Cottage. 2-pop Whip Wendy (Settler 69/100); Worker @ Wendy hoof it to new city location.
T73: Wendy (Settler > WB); Dipper (WB > Worker); Workers do stuff.
T74: Wendy (WB > Archer); Soos (Barracks > Worker); Dipper Worker Finish Cottage; Workers/Settler go to crab spot road and stuff.
T75: Work at Mabel complete; Dipper Worker go to Soos hills;
T76: Stanford (Worker > Archer); City 6 Worker finish Road; Settle OldMan McGucket (Granary); Net Crabs; McGucket Worker Chop to Granary; New Worker Move to (-1,-2) Cottage; Whip Mabel (Granary, ends with 11/22 food); 2 Workers Cottage @ Mabel; Worker Move to (0,4); Worker Road Sheep??
T77: Wendy borders pop, net clams; Swap Wendy to Worker; Soos (Worker > Chariot); Dipper (Granary > Monument); 2 Workers put turn into Cottage at (-1,-2); 1 Worker put chop into McGucket Forest (in sim, 1 turn from maths); other workers do their thing.
T78: Maths > Currency; Stanford (Archer > Settler); Finish plains cottage, work it; Dipper (Worker > Archer); Finish Chop to McGucket; Farm that tile?; Not sure what to do with workers @ North, waiting for border pops next turn; 1 goes to forest? 2 make more cottages?
T79: Soos (Chariot > Axe?) trying to grow city;
T80: Shit happens....

Units: Worker 9, Archer 2, Chariot 1, Warrior 7, Axe 2, Spear 2
Demos: GNP 54, Prod 34, Food 92
6 Cities with 28 pop points

Compared to previous plans/attempts, this is comparable. T70 is much better. T80 shows fewer military units and more workers than before (+2 Workers, -2 Archer, -1 Chariot). GNP is a little behind my best attempt (could be tech choice, though), prod is a little less, but food is a little higher, and about the same pop points (1 less than best I've done). So, overall... this seems to be a good direction to go in? Needs some cleanup and there's definitely some inefficient worker actions (is it worth wasting ~4 worker turns to get pigs for city 5 immediately?). Those worker turns could be spent on getting faster cottages at capital, or building a road from wendy to city 6, so Settler doesn't have to spend as much time moving through jungle/forest.

Anyway, I have to play my turn tonight, so I'm gonna.... do the T54 stuff you suggested. I don't think I actually get a turn on the Horse pasture until after the wheat farm, though, but not a big deal.

[Whosit]

I keep meaning to take pics of my sandbox, but I always forget or lack the time. Sorry.

[Whosit]

Played T54 along guidelines (Worker that was at -1,-1 is heading to 2,2 to farm the floodplain). Only note is that Zulu and HRE made peace, so it was probably just a scouting thing, as expected.

[Whosit]

Y'know, I was feeling much more confident of where I'd be on T80, and I went back to my PB18 thread to compare, and... I was at 6 cities there, too. That didn't end well for me. It's a little harder to say what my other stats were since I wasn't reporting as thoroughly at that point. At least in this game it looks like most of my cities will be larger (more food, better locations). However, and I don't know if this is really major spoilers at this point, but one of the top civs in the game had 10 cities at around that point. I should expect that at least one of my rivals in this game will be in a similar position.

So I'm getting a little better, but I'm not sure how I'm going to compete with that from my current position.

[Whosit]

OK, it's been a week since I've updated. I've been following the last plan I had written out (Ichabod, if you got a chance to play in the sandbox, let me know). Here's some updates of what's been going on in the game:




Our cities.




Korean Worker poking around.




Noticed we had a trade route with Korea. This means they have Sailing. Also, since this screen shot was taken, they hooked up silver, too.




Defogged this area at last.




A nice little off-shore spot.




Korea is scouting with workboat.

I wonder if we should tech Sailing next instead of Writing > Maths. It'll delay getting to Currency a bit, but getting a Galley or two in the water and settling that fish island would be very beneficial. We could use some domestic IC trade routes and plains hill plant working fish would be defensible and profitable.

The other teams have continued their rapid expansion, including Korea. I don't know where their new city is yet. Hopefully they didn't settle towards us yet.

[Whosit]

This post is just a thread bump. Gonna upload pictures tomorrow, hopefully. Not much to report, followed my plan as best I could recall (I really thought I took better notes). Definitely considering a detour to Sailing in a few turns, though pig/sheep city will be city 5. Island city could be 6. Seems more useful than the south crab city. CH has a warrior that's going to end up poking around my north, so my spear and new archer are gonna have to cover workers. Also, barb spear appeared in the south by Wendy. Thankfully have that Axe waiting for just such an occasion, so should be an easy interception. Capital starting on the Axe just to have something to grow on. Hopefully I'll end up with just enough troops to keep barbarians (and curious rivals) at bay, and not so much that I wasted builds.

[Whosit]

OK, before I go and play the current turn.... (I wish I had time to format this into something easier to read, but for now bolding the turns is the best I can do. Though I am including illustrations every 10 turns.)

Revised Game Plan!
T63: Had changed research to Sailing (100%, 4 turns).
T64: Stanford (Axeman > Chariot); Worker at (1,7) Road (finish); Worker at (3,8) Move to (2,7) Cottage (finish); Worker at (0,4) Chop to Soos (finish); Worker at (-3,0) Move to (-3,1) Cottage; 2 Workers at (1,0) Cottage (finish) (Stanford swap Ivory to new Cottage); Whip Dipper (Granary).
T65: Dipper (Granary > Monument); Worker at (1,7) Move to (0,8); Worker at (2,7) Move to (0,8); Spearman Covers 2 Workers; Worker at (0,4) Move to (0,3) Farm; Worker at (-3,1) Cottage; 2 Workers at (1,0) Move to (0,-1) Cottage; Whip Soos (Settler: precisely 50/100).
T66: Soos (Settler > Continue Barracks); 2 Workers at (0,8) Road (finish); Move Settler to City 5 location (North); Worker at (0,3) Farm; Worker at (-3,1) Cottage; 2 Workers at (0,-1) Cottage (finish) (Stanford swap Ivory to new Cottage).
T67: Sailing > Writing (0%); Wendy (Monument > Settler); Swap Soos to Galley; Move Settler to City 5; 2 Workers at (0,8) Move to (-1,9) Road (finish); Worker at (0,3) Farm; Worker at (-3,1) Cottage (finish) (Wendy swap from grass forest to new Cottage); 1 Worker at (0,-1) Move to (1,2); 1 Worker at (0,-1) Move to (0,1) Cottage (stop).
T68: Science 100% (2t Writing); Settle Mabel Pines (Granary); 2 Workers at (-1,9) Pasture Pigs; Worker at (0,3) Farm; Worker at (0,1) Move to (0,3) Farm (finish) (Soos swap from Copper to Farm); Worker at (1,2) Mine; Worker at (-3,1) Move to (-5,-1).
T69: Stanford (Chariot > Galley); Dipper (Monument > Work Boat); Worker at (1,2) Mine; 2 Workers at (-1,9) Pasture Pigs (finish); Worker at (-5,-1) Chop to Wendy; 1 Worker at (0,3) Move to (1,1); 1 Worker at (0,3) Move to (1,5) Farm (stop).
T70: Writing > Maths (0%); Swap Soos from Copper to Horse; 1 Worker at (-1,9) Move to (1,11) Pasture Sheep; 1 Worker at (-1,9) Move to (0,11); Worker at (1,2) Mine; Worker at (-5,-1) Chop; Worker at (1,1) Chop; Worker at (1,5) Move to (2,7) Road (stop).






Stats:
Units: Worker 6, Archer 1, Chariot 1, Warrior 7, Axeman 2, Spearman 1
Demos: GNP 42 (100%); Prod 27, Food 69
5 Cities with 21 pop

(Identical stats to previous attempt, but Mabel was settled earlier and Workers were more efficient, I think.)

T71: Worker at (1,11) Pasture; Worker at (0,11) Chop; Worker at (2,7) Move to (3,8) Cottage; Worker at (1,2) Mine (finish); Worker at (-5,-1) Chop to Wendy (finish); Worker at (1,1) Chop.
T72: Worker at (1,11) Pasture; Worker at (0,11) Chop; Worker at (3,8) Cottage; Worker at (1,1) Chop to Stanford (finish); Worker at (1,2) Move to (0,3) Road; Worker at (-5,-1) Move to (-4,0); 2-pop Whip Wendy (Settler, 69/100).
T73: Stanford (Galley > Settler) (Work finished mine to north); Wendy (Settler > Work Boat); Dipper (Work Boat > Work Boat); Dipper swap grassland to coast; Worker at (0,3) Road (finish); Worker at (1,11) Pasture Sheep (finish); Worker at (0,11) Chop to Mabel (finish); Worker at (3,8) Cottage; New Work Boat explore towards offshore City 6; Worker at (1,1) Mine; Load Axe into Galley; Galley Move to (2,0); Settler Move to (0,1); Worker at (-4,0) Move to (-1,-1); Send Chariot to Stanford to escort Worker/Settler.
T74: Wendy (Work Boat > Lighthouse); Settler Move onto Galley; Galley at (2,0) Move to (3,2); Worker at (3,8) Cottage (finish); Dipper work new Cottage; Worker at (-1,-1) Road; Worker at (0,11) Cottage; Worker at (1,11) Move to (0,11) Cottage; Worker at (0,3) Move to (0,-1).
T75: Soos (Galley > Continue Barracks); Galley Drop Off Settler/Axe; Work Boat Move to Island Fish (circled island); Worker at (1,1) Mine; 2 Workers at (0,11) Cottage (finish); Worker at (-1,-1) Road (finish); Worker at (0,-1) move to (-1,-2) Road; Worker at (3,8) Move to (2,7) Road (finish).
T76: Settle (Pacifica: Granary) It's a net gain due to IC trade routes!!; Worker at (1,1) Mine (finish); Stanford swaps to Plains Mine, Soos swaps to Grass Mine; Worker at (2,7) Move to (1,8); Worker at (-1,-2) Road (finish); Worker at (-1,-1) Move to (-1,-3); 1 Worker at (0,11) Move to (1,10); 1 Worker at (0,11) Move to (-1,10) Farm.
T77: Science 100% (Maths in 5t); Dipper (Work Boat > Worker); Net Wendy Crab (work mine); Worker at (1,10) Chop to Dipper; Worker at (-1,10) Farm; Worker at (1,8) Chop (stop); Worker at (-1,-3) Road; Worker at (-1,-2) Move to (-1,-3); Worker at (1,1) Move to (-2,0).
T78: Soos (Barracks > Settler); Worker at (1,10) Chop; Worker at (-1,10) Farm; Worker at (1,8) Chop (stop); Worker at (-1,-3) Road (finish); Worker at (-1,-3) Chop (stop); Worker at (-2,0) Move to (-4,2); 2pop Whip Wendy (lighthouse).
T79: Stanford (Settler > Work Boat); Wendy (Lighthouse > Settler); Worker at (1,10) Chop to Mabel (finish); Worker at (-1,10) Farm; Net Dipper Clams; Worker at (1,8) Chop to Dipper (finish); 1 Worker at (-1,-3) Move to (-1,-4) Road; 1 Worker at (-1,-3) Chop (stop); Move Settler South; Worker at (-4,2) Chop to Wendy; 1pop whip Mabel (Granary).
T80: Stanford (Work Boat> Archer); Dipper (Worker > Lighthouse); Mabel (Granary > Monument); Worker at (-1,-4) Road (finish); Move Settler to City 7 and Settle (OldMan McGucket: Granary); Worker at (-1,-3) Chop to McGucket (finish); Worker at (1,8) Move to (1,7) Cottage; Worker at (3,7) Move to (3,9); Worker at (-4,2) Chop; Worker at (-1,10) Farm (finish); Worker at (1,10) Move to (2,9).






Turn 80 stats
Units: Worker 7, Archer 1, Chariot 1, Warrior 7, Axeman 2, Spearman 1, Galley 2
Demos: GNP 57 (100%), Prod 41, Food 96
7 Cities with 29 pop points.

Compare to last results: Fewer workers (but haven't needed as many), ahead on all demos, ahead on cities and pop (basically, an extra size 1 city). Same number of combat units, but trades an archer and spear for 2 galleys, which is good trade (I often fail to have any presence at sea).

T81: Worker at (-1,-4) Move to (-1,-6); Worker at (-1,-3) Farm; Worker at (-4,2) Mine (stop); Worker at (2,9) Mine; Worker at (3,9) Chop to Dipper; Worker at (-1,10) Move to (-1,7); Worker at (1,7) Cottage.
T82: Maths (classical era) > Currency (0%); Stanford (Archer > Library); Archer goes south (or where needed); Worker at (-1,-3) Farm; Worker at (-1,-6) Chop to McGucket; Worker at (-4,2) Chop to Wendy (finish); Worker at (-1,7) Road; Worker at (1,7) Cottage; Worker at (2,9) Mine; Worker at (3,9) Chop; Net McGucket Crabs.
T83: Soos (Settler > Worker); Worker at (-1,7) Road; Worker at (1,7) Cottage (finish); Worker at (-4,2) Move to (-4,1) Road (finish); Worker at (-1,6) Chop; Worker at (-1,-3) Farm; Worker at (2,9) Mine; Worker at (3,9) Chop to Dipper (finish); Settler at Soos head to City 8 (1W Gold); 1pop whip Mabel (Monument).
T84: Dipper (Lighthouse > Archer); Mabel (Monument > Archer); Worker at (-1,7) Road (finish); Worker at (-4,1) Move to (-5,2) Road; Worker at (-1,-6) Chop to McGucket (finish); Worker at (-1,-3) Farm; Worker at (2,9) Mine (finish); Worker at (1,7) Move to (1,8) Cottage; Worker at (3,9) Move to (1,7).
T85: Mabel Pines (Archer > Archer); Settle (Gideon Gleeful: Monument); Gideon takes Mabel's Pig (oh no! Waddles!); Worker at (-5,2) Road (finish); Worker at (-1,7) Mine; Worker at (1,7) Move to (-1,7) Mine; Worker at (-1,-3) Farm (finish); Worker at (1,8) Cottage; Worker at (2,9) Move to (1,10) Cottage; Worker at (-1,-6) Move to (-2,-5); 2pop Whip Stanford (Library); Note: Want to shuttle 2 Archers to Pacifica, bring back Axe.
T86: Stanford (Library > Axeman); Wendy (Settler > Library); Soos (Worker > Worker); Settler move to City 9 (1S Horse); Worker at (-5,1) Cottage (stop); 2 Workers at (-1,7) Mine; Worker at (-2,-5) Mine; Worker at (1,8) Cottage; Worker at (1,10) Cottage; Worker at Soos Move to (0,4); Worker at (-1,-3) Move to (-2,-2).
T87: Settle (Toby Determined: Granary) and steal Wendy Corn; Worker at (-1,7) Mine Gold (finish); Worker at (0,4) Mine; Worker at (-5,2) Move to (-5,4) Pasture Horse; Worker at (-2,-5) Mine; Worker at (-2,-2) Road; Workers at (1,8) and (1,10) Cottage; Mabel work new finished Cottage; Worker at (-1,7) Move to (-2,8).
T88: Science to 100% (Currency in 4t); Stanford (Axeman > Settler); Dipper (Archer > Library); McGucket (Granary > Monument); Worker at (0,4) Mine; Worker at (-2,-2) Road (finish); Worker at (-2,-5) Mine; Worker at (1,10) Cottage (finish); Worker at (-2,8) Chop to Gideon; Worker at (-1,7) Move to (-1,8); Worker at (-5,4) Pasture; Worker at (1,8) Move to (2,8) Road; Load Archers onto Galley, swap with 1 Axeman.
T89: Soos (Worker > Axeman); Worker at (-2,-2) Move to (-3,-1) Road; Worker at (-2,-5) Mine (finish); Worker at (-5,4) Pasture; Worker at (0,4) Mine; Worker at (1,10) Road; Worker at (2,8) Road (finish); Worker at (-2,8) Chop; Worker at (-1,8) Chop; Worker at Soos Move to (0,6).
T90: Worker at (0,4) Mine (finish); Worker at (-3,-1) Road; Worker at (-5,-4) Pasture Horse (finish); Worker at (1,10) Road (finish); Worker at (0,6) Road; Worker at (2,8) Move to (3,9) Road; Worker at (-2,-5) Move to (-1,-6) Cottage; Worker at (-2,8) Chop (finish); Worker at (-1,8) Chop.






Turn 90 Stats:
Units: Worker 9, Archer 4, Chariot 1, Warrior 7, Axeman 3, Spearman 1, Galley 2
Demos: GNP 81 (100%), Prod 50, Food 130
9 Cities with 44 population points.

I don't have a benchmark of my own to compare this to yet, but compared to T80 GNP went up about 40%, Prod increased a mere 20%, and Food increased 35%. Not phenomenal leaps, but seems like good increases for a 10-turn period. I also think that 9 cities at turn 90 (with more coming) isn't too bad, especially for me. I was expecting Currency to finish up in a couple of turns, but expenses jumped up so it'll be delayed, but hopefully I'll have it in time for city 10. City 10 will be to the north to grab that pig/fish spot so long as Korea hasn't gotten there. This build also assumes Korea doesn't take that Clam/Fish spot, or otherwise interferes with Dipper getting those clams. Anyway, hopefully Currency completes in time to keep pushing cities, though I am not entirely sure what direction to expand it. I guess at this point it'll depend on where my rivals are settling.

[Whosit]

Report from Real Turn 64:

I think I spent twice as long in-game as I needed to just to make sure I was following my (new) plan to the letter.




Holy Rome has a new city and will no doubt snag that Barb city sooner or later. They have 6 cities to my 4 (same ration as with the Zulu).




I'm glad I build that extra Axeman because these two barbs are poking around. Last time the Spearman ran away, but hopefully I can take both these suckers out and breather a little easier for a few turns.




Thankfully HRE didn't double move me because they could have killed a worker that was North of Dipper when the last turn rolled. Also note that the Korean Warrior is fortifying, which makes me worry that they'll be settling a city in that area soon. If that looks to be the case, I will happily whip that monument that Dipper is going to start working on, but if they settle for those clams in their first ring (why not, great site) they only way to get them back is to burn their city down.




Not doing great in the demos, probably because half our opponents have more cities or are better developed. I guess there's no sweating it right now, but at least I'm not last place in any of the 3 important demos. Wonder who's surpassing me in soldier score, though. Ah, I should get graphs on the Zulu next turn.

So, considering the plan I just drew up, I'm confident I can keep our little empire of Gravity Falls expanding and improving, but we are not winning the snowball race. In fact, if you look at the scores (and demos), there's already a clear split between the contenders and wanna-bes: HRE, Zulu, and Persia are the ones who's gonna pull ahead (no surprise considering the helpers on those teams), whereas I, Korea, Vikings, and Rome are the ones waiting to be absorbed.

I'm sad that I haven't been able to meet Rome or Team Macktruck yet. I am also wondering about the implications of HRE and Zulu being neighbors. Since they are both top contenders, they sadly will probably not fight each other, and I'm worried that HRE is going to try to expand into me when the time comes. Don't know where Mack is. Probably next to Rome (they're doing worse than me, so that's a bad sign). Korea is up 1 city on me at the moment, but so far we seem to be keeping apace. They might be my natural target later (especially if they try to steal my clams!!), but I figure a peaceful border with them would be best, because I have to worry about HRE and in the event that HRE and Zulu fight, I wouldn't mind trying to pick up a HRE city or two.

So, Currency is going to come in some time post T90. Not sure what to go for after that. I'm not chasing any wonders (I don't think I can afford to, just Settlers and more Workers), though I think I want to pick up HBR for my UU and UB, and also IW to deal with some of the jungle I'll be running into (and also finding Iron). And, well, just gonna cross my fingers that I won't need much more military than what I've been planning for. I also hope I can make it to that Fish island before the Koreans.... Even by Turn 90, it hadn't even finishes its Granary, but I think it more than payed for itself with those IC TRs.