Q Bakes an Evil Doom Muffin

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Left some signs. Clan should be building goblins or warriors, and the Kurio cap needs a goblin garrison. I should reiterate for REM that in FFH, most buildings are bad. The granary build for Kuriotates is very much against the norm of FFH - only because they are the epitome of "tall" civs, and because of the odd situation of this game.

Kurios are working bad tiles atm, and are going to outpace development substantially - I think they should build another worker to keep up with demand/help with the Clan's next city.

Hippus have a scout that will have at least one promotion (as well as the AGG) and possibly two. We need to be wary of that in the north.


North of the pigs is...a possibility. As well as the three tiles lost to map edge, though, it also has two shared with the capital, a lake tile, and a desert tile. It can share rice from capital to grow, however, and it fits nicely in with a Southern Kurio dotmap.

Agreed about Lanun city. It will be being built second.

[Qgqqqqq]

The three Kurio cities being proposed:










Of these, I think the southern location in the middle picture, and the one shown in the top are likely to be the best, and will also, conveniently, be rather fast to setup. I think we want to found the western one (top picture) first, with the south-east one following quickly after for a quick Legends pop.

Chat between me and Kredom:

Gruman: hey hawk
Sent at 3:55 PM on Monday
me: Yo
Did you see REM's post?
Gruman: i moved the working tile for 1 turn, to boost the granary, as the city was getting 1 more pop anyway
i didnt see it yet
me: Ah, k
Just in general though, the cityis going to grow ahead of production
of tiles
And we want a Kurio worker out in the medium-term future anyway, because they're more effecient than Clan
Gruman: anyway i thought of working the dye (2 food 2 gold) and not sure if the hill with forest (2 food and 1 prod) or the tile u suggested 2 food 1 gold.
you suggest putting the granary on hold, and making another worker?
me: Probably, just not sure at this city size or one more
I wasn't suggesting that tile, btw
Sent at 3:59 PM on Monday
Gruman: i should start at this size, or wait 3 turns and do it with 1 more size
me: Yeah...though you may be able to speed that up to two turns
Gruman: the city will grow in 3 turns, and it doesnt matter if a work the 3 prod tile, or the 2 food 1 x tile
me: Yeah, def 3 turns
Hum.
Worker will be 6 turns
At this size
Maybe 5 at next size, though I doubt it
What with the Dye needing working
Gruman: i dont see my production getting better
me: So maybe this size?
Gruman: 5 turns if i dont work the dye
me: Stick with the forest hill, than change to the dye when it's finished
Yeah
The next improvement after the dye will be a farm, which is what, 5 turns?
4 on quick
So one turn move (NE-NE)
4 turns improvement
Probably comes out the turn your worker finishes
so synced up (kinda) with worker finishing the improvement whilst the old one starts another farm
That does mean that they'll be ahead of you, but probably worth it
Yeah, I like that timing
Gruman: isnt it better to get both workers to improve the same tile
?
me: Yeah definitely
Thing is, the farm will (probably) have one turn left to go when worker build finishes
Thus the old worker can move whilst the new finishes. expediating the process
More effeciency
Now there's a question.
Which do you think we'll want the workers to head for after your borders pop (nine turns)
The rice, or the wine?
Gruman: ok to sum it up, put granary on hold, and start building another worker, and work on forest hill and forest grass
me: Yep.
Gruman: i guess the rice, but that will get me far away of the other improvements
me: And then shift to dye when it's finished
Yeah, tbh I'm not sure.
I think wine/mining improvements will probably win out
But it's the sort of question that needs to be solved in the next turn
Gruman: that gives really good boost on economy
ok after crafting goes mining, isnt it?
me: Yeah.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1253....51.51.png
This is where REM proposed for a Kurio city
Thoughts?
Gruman: it was strange the enemie attacked your scout, and didnt do it last turn... it was the same %
me: Probably had a unit to back it up.
Gruman: didnt see any, but it might have...
me: Oh and fun note - their clan city is a size behind ours
Gruman: that place got 3 less western tiles, and 2 eastern tiles to share with the cap
me: I know.
Those are the ouchies.
Gruman: its nice, but i like better the south eastern one (if i can stop kurios scout)
me: Yeah of course.
But we;re really talking about the third one here.
I'm comparing this one to the NW site we proposed
Gruman: that is a great spot for clan or lanun (clan better i think) and just a good spot por kurios
me: Really?
To my mind it's better than SE one
More rivers/commerce resources
Gruman: yup the SE one isnt that good
hate tundra
me: Hang on, what are you comparing to?
I mean South East - the border one
Sent at 4:17 PM on Monday
Gruman: yup, not really sure right now,,, i like all those river tiles, but i want to think on a production city and the se 1 wont be for that
but not sure about it :S, we will have to see in the near future
Sent at 4:19 PM on Monday
me: Yeah, production is really lacking on this map
Sent at 4:21 PM on Monday

And some graphs:

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Sorry I was conscious that I would start paying unit maitainence at 8 units, and I am already at 6. The Granary felt right as I got the exp bonus on it. So just cancel the build? It is only 30 hammers so I thought it was worth it. Was gonna go settler at either size 5 or 6. When I reach that I will assess how many turns an extra size will save. I think 5 will probably have win, as I would be working food tiles and not hammer tiles.

With regards to the kurios cities, how large do they end up getting? Will they actually work all the tiles?

[Kredom]

depending on the civics i end up having, and the wonder iam able to build it can work all tiles, or it might get to almost every tile...

[Qgqqqqq]

If we can help it, yes.

I don't know the formula for unit maintenance, but it decreases based on city size, right? So you should have a little bit more leeway. It is 30 hammers, but (IIRC) it isn't going to save you any health food for a good while, you're nearly at the size you want to be for settlers (and it only gives 20% anyway), and you won't be growing much bigger for a good long time. So yeah, I think cancel it.

I suspect size 5 will win over size 6 as well (as it's only a grass farm/grass forest to grow on). (Actually, size 4 might even win...pfh, gfh, corn and incense gives 19fh per turn, or just shy of a 5 turn settler - IIRC - with a few extra turns on the grass forest and/or overflow from a unit being enough...but I think it's too late for size 4.)

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Please play for me, domestic mash up here

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Played all three. Decided that the early settler for the clan is worth getting out - they're not gaining any speed by growing, so might as well get out ASAP.

[Qgqqqqq]

Micro.

Clan:
Worker finishes farm, moves 1N, roads fully (speeds up the settler), then moves NE (to the gems) and roads/improves them.
Settler finishes, founds 3S of the cap.

Any disagreements? I think Kurios can handle the second city with their workers, they won't have excess but they do have two workers so hopefully.

Kuriotates:
Worker farms current tile, stopping the turn worker 2 comes out (we need to label workers, btw) who finishes farm. Then they each go 1N, farm. After that vagues stuff with working on the gold/wines/Clan wheat.
Worker finishes, resume granary. (Can work on military in emergency.)

Lanun:
Worker finishes winery, builds last remaining farm. Move to silks turn mining comes in and chop/plantation it.
Grow to size 5, finish warrior. Build settler. (This one is flexi to change - maybe we grow to size 6? Probably not worth it, though).

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Bug which I came across recently: Centaur Chargers require construction (NOT Trade) to train.

This...could have effects.

[Qgqqqqq]

Chat with Kredom:

Sent at 3:04 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: you sent wrong save
me: Corrected, TY
Gruman: :D
me: We got their scout stopped off :D
So you're safe in the south
Gruman: need to take care of that scout asap :S
at least b4 he gets some backup :P
me: Next turn, it goes NW->NW
95% certain
Gruman: and he is dead the next turn :P
me: Then, warrior can either go 1N
Or NE
But NE is quite risky
Gruman: isnt it better warrior 1 NW and scout 1 ne 1 nw?
me: Regardless, he'll probably live
Gruman: no you are right, 1 n is better
me: Yeah well he almost definitely escapes
By going back to the deer turn after next
Gruman: 1 ne with the warrior would be a mistake
me: But, the point is, he can't get past
Yeah
Actually, warrior might be better off staying put
Gruman: and if we move the warrior 1 south, and the scout 2 nw?
me: ?
What turn?
Gruman: next turn, the warrior 1 west, and the scout 1 nw
me: Doesn
't gain anything over staying in place
with the warrior
Gruman: if he goes 1 south, and sees the warrior he might go 1s... although i doubt it
me: Nah
Gruman: he might try to defend with 50% defense bonus
me: Best to just keep fencing till we get more units down here
Realistically, he's got nothing coming
Gruman: ok
me: Like, even if he does have a scout, it'll take forever
Gruman: ok then the best way to fence him woulf be warrior 1nw, and scout 1nw 1 ne
Sent at 4:01 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: (unless we think he might win against our lone scout on the forest hill
me: Nah, not THAT paranoid
It's more about warrior being able to respond to him going to pfh
Plus, if he does try and take a risk by going 1SW, we want him to try it
Gruman: you
me: And there's like 20% chance of that, or therabouts
Gruman: if he does something like that, what do i train? the scout or the warrior?
me: Warrior gets odds.
So warrior
Gruman: if he fails then comes the scout
me: Scout picks up the mess if it dies
Yeah
Gruman: ok
me: Warrior is probably 73%(?)
Sent at 4:05 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: wrong save again
thats mine
the enemie is cardith lorda
me: Hahah
Cause I always send to you...
Gruman: lol yeah :P
Sent at 4:09 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: next tech is fishing?
Sent at 4:10 PM on Wednesday
me: Yeah
That was the plan, and I think it should remain
Posted micro by the way.
Gruman: and then? aristocracy, bronce, or rok (or other religion?)
me: Well...AC->Myst immediately
Then we probably want education soonish for apprenticeship/cottages
As well as masonry for clan
Gruman: yup the cottages need to be worked asap
me: But...fuck, is that the fastest you've ever seen an early mining?
The tech pace on this game is going to be phenomonal, even for the other team
Let alone us
With Lanun/Kurios
And hammers are going to be very slow too...
Gruman: yup, sonner than later we will have to decide if going for horses, depending on how fast the start building up... they need to attack fast if they hope to win this
me: Oh yeah
What do you mean by horses, though?
Sent at 4:16 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: main (or at least a really good strategy for kurios is the horseback riding for centaurs, but we took another tech path)
me: Well not yet we haven't
I can't imagine even a rushy team going different this early
I mean, mining unlocks 3 resources automatically, and one more at the next city
Sent at 4:19 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: so perhaps we might take a different strategie, they will be waiting centaurs and ships, and it might be a good idea to surprise with religion and iron or sorcery
dont know, just speaking my mind out without giving a second thought :P
me: I think the fundamental point is, though, that we're on the defensive this game
As in, if they leave us alone for 100 turns, we win. No questions.
So focus isn't really on what we use to kill them once our snowball reaches avalanche stage.
Gruman: ok
me: I mean, probably Iron Raider Centaur Chargers/Ogres with Shaman and boat support will be on the cards
Gruman: yup with the bug u just posted... chargers are a really good option
and triremes might be a really good choice if they have coastal cities...
me: But it's more important to ask: are we going to defend against them with Horsemen/Centaurs/wolf riders or bronze axes when they come in 20-30 turns
Yeah The real question is...do I tell them about that bug or not?
Gruman: can they see it on the civilopedia?
me: Yeah
But the FFH civilopedia is...unreliable, to say the least
Gruman: perhaps u should tell bob or dave, so they tell it... you shouldnt say it... because it would give some hints we dont want them to get
me: Well...it's like this. It's kinda a theme with how complicsated this mod is that all sorts of quirks are found in-game
And generally, people just don't announce them
Gruman: ok them as u like
me: But...I am the modder.
BTW, we never decided on Kurio cities.
Sent at 4:28 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: as i see it we have 2 places for the second city, your place K? and mi kurio city 2
me: Yeah...probably
But OTOH, maybe REM's west spot is best
It shares the rice
I mean...here's how I see it going: We want the Kurios to get to three cities ASAP
So we can fire worldspell, and so on
So I think we want Clan to pretty much go straight to another settler after this one
Meanwhile, Kurios will build one once they're grown
Gruman: K? = 14 rivers 5 jungles 2 hills 1 mountain
me: Then we found one, it's left at first borders for a few turns till the other one comes in and we pop legends
Gruman: kurio city 2 = 15 rivers 4 hills 2 jungles 1 less dye
Sent at 4:34 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: rems west point = 17 rivers? 4 hills, 1 desert 3 less tiles 2 shared tiles
Sent at 4:35 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: with mining in mind... i think i like as mant hills as i can get, with rivers
Sent at 4:36 PM on Wednesday
Gruman: not sure anyway... i dont feel very experienced or good player (my other 2 games can show that) but i guess kurios city 2 it feels slightly better
at least to boost production asap
then city 3 can go to the place rem suggested, or to the north wester part...
me: Your spot versus mine:

Mine has:
gh
ph
mountain
grass
river dye
river gh
grass


Yours has:
coast
grass
ph
ph
plains
plains
plains
Removing identicals
Mine has:
gh
mountain
grass
river dye
river gh

Yours has:
coast
ph
plains
plains
plains
Sent at 4:40 PM on Wednesday
me: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1253...mer/11.png
Gruman: Error (404)
me: Huh.
Should work now
I think its mostly perception that yours has more production - because those ph are forested, whilst the K? ones are jungled or bare
Gruman: yup, the i dont like the jungle... but i guess i can remove it in a few turns...
me: The real advantage of your spot is the rivers which should protect against enemies
And afford a bit more tactical control
Gruman: that if we are going to be attacked, and that city is the front line... is something we need to keep in mind...
me: Yeah, I mean...I hope we push it further, but that's unlikely before a horseman rush
Whilst the real advantage of my spot is actually having the rice in first ring
Gruman: lol, now u see? you finally convince me that k? is better, and now iam in a doubt again
me: Hahaha
I'm not convinced, see
Either way
I mean...the thing is. If we go with your spot, we basically have to go west first
Because Rice is second ring for your spot, and we shouldn't bother with a monument with legends so close
But west is kinda inconvenient...
Gruman: and west city with 1 ring, is kind of useless... :S
me: Nah, because it share the caps rice
That's why west is better than your spot south
I mean, short term
Sent at 4:50 PM on Wednesday