[PB22 Spoiler] Joey and Borsche puke on the funny pages

[GermanJoey]

T154.

Interesting tactical development on the Furungy front; instead of more Longbows appearing in Nidaros, there were several new Knights (still without blue glow) and a catapult.




In addition, he also got Engineering this turn! Damn! He had no cash to upgrade the warrior to a pike, but I expect it to be a significantly more pointy unit next turn. I've gotta wait for my boats to arrive, I think, before I can legitimately threaten that city.

I was able to get Uppsala this turn for free, as he deleted the Archer - silly, it had a decent chance of eating a Knight.




It came with a Granary and Lighthouse, which is pretty nice, but was unfortunately spite-whipped down to size 3. =/ Nidaros is down to size 5, and many of his cities in his eastern sphere are down to size 5 or 6 as well. After this, he'll be pretty gassed..

Now, what to do about Nidaros? This city will be key for whether I can safely (and profitably) maintain post-Furungyland without stress. So, on the one hand, 10 strength Knights are a hell of a lot easier to kill in hilled 60% cultural defenses than Longbows. On the other hand, he can now fork ME, at least for next turn, with his 6 move Knights. So, I decided to try laying a trap. First, I moved off the fork and into Uppsala, leaving just a lone Axeman to cover my flank to Oslo. What I'm hoping for is that he leaps on the axe with his axe stack and takes back (razes?) Oslo... leaving me an opening to road this yellow tile here, and use MY 6-move, triple-upgraded knights to wipe his.




If he doesn't go for the trap, that's fine too, as I can raze the road on the blue tile with the axe next turn to prevent the fork to Oslo, and then raze the roads on the maroon tiles (as much as it hurts to raze a fully developed town ) to prevent the bifurcation to Uppsala. If all goes according to plan, I'll still need to key my eyes peeled for a surprise galley attack coming via Nidaros... gotta burn a pair of upgrades on Sentry, I think, even if I can't see past his capital.

Education due next turn; Econ in like... 6? I've gotta be careful not to keep myself at maximum 28 cities before I revolt into it, or else I'll have to eat 2 turns of Anarchy instead of just 1. (formula here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=342624 ...funnily enough, I only found out about this a few days ago, when a friend asked and I looked it up for him!)

[GermanJoey]

I also just remembered this, outta nowhere: Gavagai is in a GA now, that's got me stressin'. I'm up 37k power on him this turn, gotta keep widening the gap.

[GermanJoey]

Sweet, woke up this morning to a PM from REM informing me that they just declared war, double moving me for "the sake of the timer." Bullshit. Fuck that, you can't double move someone just because you "thought about declaring war last turn" but were "discussing your options" and thus, did not. Furungy takes like 22 hours to play every fucking turn, its not like you have a shortage of time here. One turn matters a huge deal for me, its the difference of at least 7 or 8 more troops at the choke pulled in from other garrisons to absorb collateral.

[GermanJoey]

Sigh, I did a few quick sims before coming in to work, thankfully no meetings this morning, this will be close. If they attack without barraging and get very lucky, the city will fall. If they barrage then hit I'm fine, as I am if they barrage then wait a turn. If only I hadn't finished Education last turn and upgraded some troops at my other front, I'd have a lot of gold to upgrade with, as well as troops NOT MOVED IN THE OPPOSITE FUCKING DIRECTION TO THE GAVAGAI AND GAWDZAK FRONTS, this double move motherfucking fucks me ARRGHH.

my pal at work, who I got into this site a bit, was laughing his ass off at me this morning.

[GermanJoey]

I'm going out of my mind here, gonna skip out early before a lunch meeting to go home and run some sims, lol...

I'm more worried how Gavagai will react to this than anything else.

[GermanJoey]

T155.

Worst case scenario speculating... even if this double move is allowed (which I repeat, I am *NOT* ok with) AND they attack T157 before I can play, they cannot even take the city unless they get phenomenally lucky and almost every single battle with their hitters - we'll both lose shitloads of units, of course, but as long as the city still stands I can reinforce with many quality units; for example, it needed until next turn to hit a stable (lol) configuration, but I can still 1-turn knights outta here:




Either bombard first then immediately hit or hitting without bombardment works about the same... hitting without bombardment kills more of my units, but bombarding first leaves a stronger stack to hit again T158.

The worst result of any of this is if a major power decline tips Gavagai into dogpiling, in which case I am probably out of the game. However, if Gavagai dogpiles, Mack (AND maybe HAK?) will stab him in the back and put Gavagai out of the game too, so that seems unlikely even with a big opening, the more I think on this. So why are they doing this? Why throw all your units away instead of settling this?




The Furungy front was quiet this turn; he did not take my bait. Next turn, I finish preparations, and on T157 I advance forward.




Oh yeah, and fuck barb galleys.

[Ceiliazul]

I'm not following the tech thread, but I assume you are working on a reload?

Apart from sympathy about getting your furj-stomp blocks, that knight city rocks!

[Old Harry]

From what they've written (and it's fairly detailed) and the posting timeline I don't think it counts as a double move I'm afraid Jojo, just some incompetent turn management . Are you happy with that or do you want more details?

Look on the bright side - at least you aren't in a 3-way split...

[GermanJoey]

I'm not happy with that, no, sorry Harry. I played last turn assuming that, as I played and ended turn before them, that any war would see them in the second half of the timer. Not only does this matter for *their* moves, but it also matters for *mine.* I moved my units and spent my gold based on this assumption... i.e. "I can make these moves here, because these units produced here can make it here by T157", etc. If I thought I might have to react immediately, I woulda hedged my unit movement to cover myself. When this happened to me with Furungy, where I was on the attacking side, I respectfully waited till the second half of the timer instead of double-moving. If they truly needed me to wait last turn, they could have contacted me then.

In any case, we've both agreed, via PM, to ask TBS, as a neutral observer who has mediated some of our past disputes, to weigh in on this matter. It's not that I don't trust you man, you're a great guy, but you're also Adrien's mentor in PB23 and so I feel like you'll be a lot more sympathetic to him because of that relationship. I'm willing to believe that they're not intentionally gaming the timer, but that still doesn't excuse a double move.

[GermanJoey]

TBS's judgement and my response:

Hi there, just to say we declared war on you this turn. We did want to last turn and were discussing it but during that time you played hence we delayed it to this turn. Because of that to keep the game rolling Adrien logged in to end our turn after you guys to keep the game rolling. We have been playing before you generally with your current furugny war split for the last 10 turns or so.

We hope this is OK, sorry for the faff.

REM

You might have thought about it but... then you didn't, and you just double moved me. That is not OK. I agree it would be vastly better for the game if we had the split of y'all+Furungy first, then me after, but I absolutely am not prepared to eat a double move with a huge surprise army at my doorstep for the sake of the turn timer. Thus, with that in consideration, I think I should have the first half of the split. As soon as there's a good point, we can switch to something more sensible.

TBS, I don't know if you're the admin or not here, but what do you think about this?

I understand how you feel, I had planned to keep a watch on the moment Furungy played while waiting for REM's opinion but I was away for an hour and missed the opportunity to end turn before you. To be honest if I had moved a single unit towards you in the second part of my turn yesterday we would have taken the 3rd part of the split without question. Because I had played the bulk of my turn before you (after that I only moved back the HA and trireme you must have noticed) I'd like to hear an independant opinion on the question. If TBS thinks it is better to have you play before us in this war I suppose it would be acceptable to have you double move next turn.

Hi guys,

My opinion, if I was in REMAI's situation on T155, is that I would have waited until the second half of the timer to attack.

Attacking as you did in the first slot on T154, compared to attacking in the second slot on T153, I'm not sure I see any disadvantage to Joey in that comparison. I also agree that REMAI's big stack was not double moved, you did not seem to get any extra information on T154 to inform your attack so I don't see any malicious intent. That makes the double-move rule 'don't be a jerk' a bit harder to arbitrate, but if you guys are looking for my opinion, once you chose not to attack at the end of T154, your next opportunity would be the end of T155.

So, I'd recommend a reload to T155 before REMAI played. If you are happy with this, then post in the tech thread immediately. Alternately, if both of you are happy with GJ double-moving, playing this turn and at the start of next turn, that's fine too and saves a reload.

Some further points;

Obviously the reload hurts REMAI, since GJ now has knowledge of their attack. There's not much that can be done here, but I'd appeal to Joey's honor to try act as he would have without that information. That's a pretty impossible thing to ask, but try if you can.

REMAI is under no obligation to declare war after the reload. You can react to GJ's actions just as you would before.

Obviously the game would be better off with a 2-way split rather than a 3-way. And given the circumstances, If Joey agreed to play on from the current situation, that would be best for everyone else, though I'd understand if he wouldn't want this. Or REMAI could play first on t155 so they would have the option of declaring war in the first time slot of T156. Again though, you're giving an extra half turn for GJ to prepare, and it's understandable if you don't want that. If you don't take these options, then see if you can change time slots if you get an opportunity.

TBS.

Hey,

Thanks for mediating, TBS, we appreciate it. After thinking on it for awhile, your suggestion to a reload to before REM played on T155, with me now taking the first half of the timer (after Furungy), seems fair to me. I can document in detail which units I moved this turn that I would not have otherwise in my lurker thread. REM and Adrien then have the right to do whatever they want after that. REM's suggestion (that I just see now, hitting F5 before I hit send) of me simply taking the first half next turn is also fine, assuming that they will do the same thing.

We can perhaps try to negotiate a re-order of the turn timer back into a 2-way split once (if?) there's a lull in the action, but for now we'll just deal with the 3-way split.

Joey

REM also replied, just before I did:

Hey there, thanks for looking into it TBS.

I'm sorry we caused a fuss. I'm not sure if you picked up on it but the reason why I said to adrienIer not to attack on the previous turn is while he was waiting for an opinion GJ played and I thought it would look dodgy playing before and after in a turn. I didn't realise until after I had gone into the game that he had re entered after that to end the turn. He did play all the moves except that. I feel silly as the whole point of not attacking the previous turn was to avoid any shenanigans.

However I will follow whatever you rule, and if you think we should go second I don't think there is a need to reload. We can just be double moved back unless adrienIer thinks differently.

For future reference, would we have been able to attack that turn (154) or not? I thought no as we would have played before and after (unintentionally admittedly) but from the way you word things it sounds like we would have been fine doing so?

Needless to say, that this is a big relief to me, my blood pressure has been through the roof all day, lol.... (work's been nuts on top of this too, all these little last-minute avalanches are gonna bury this chip, I swear). I feel like TBS's judgement is very fair to both of us. REM's suggestion - which was actually my original suggestion - is more advantageous to me than what TBS suggested, I think? I might be missing some angle here, though. We should wait for Adrian to weigh in.