Civs in RtR

[dtay]

Question about civs in RtR mode. My understanding is development has basically halted (by design) on the base RtR mod, making the current set of changes roughly the final set, and any additional mod ideas are going into the gameplay expansion mod (correct me if this understanding is wrong, though even if it is half of what i have to say below is still relevant).

I personally feel somewhat ambivalent about the gameplay expansion mod, not necessarily because of objections to any particular idea in it, but just that I feel weird about playing a mod with the goal of broad gameplay changes as opposed to balancing the civ 4 that already exists. Nothing bad intended towards those who are interested in the concept, and honestly I'll probably try it out once it's done, but it's just not my cup of tea.

But that said, I think RtR still has a one area for reasonably large improvement: civ balance. About 5 civs or so are better than the others, and notably are "interesting", with cool unique buildings/units that you can to some extent base a strategy around. Another set of civs are good enough that you'd feel excited about them as long as you had the right start techs. And then there are the civs that are honestly, just... err meh. Like Germany. Or Korea. None of these are civs that will screw you like some will in base Civ 4 (fixed mostly via start tech balancing), and the gap between weakest and strongest civ has certainly shrunk. But I think there's still room for improvement.

So is there any interest in brainstorming/working on another round of civ rebalancing to RtR? My understanding is most (all?) civ changes can be done via XML, so the coding isn't the hard part here, but rather deciding what exactly needs to change. I don't really care if this becomes RtR 2.0.7.4 or 2.0.8.1 or a mod-mod "RtR-civ-rebalance", but I think it's a worthwhile project.

In the case I was wrong and RtR development isn't done, then this is really just a brainstorming thread for whenever the next wave of changes comes out.

Actual Discussion of Changes:
I think we should shy away from nerfing anything, I don't think any of the top tier civs are so OP that the need to be brough back down to the pack (possible exception: Zulu and the rushes it enables, but I don't feel anywhere close to strong about that). Instead I think we need to identify the civs that have little to their name and think about giving them small to medium buffs, the idea being every civ should feel roughly as exciting or solid to play as something like Inca or Aztecs or Zulu (my opinion of which civs are the best atm) do right now.

Candidates for upgrades in my opinion (and to be clear upgrade doesn't mean I think these are unplayable or suck, but that there is clearly room for buffs while not breaking the current top-tier ceiling)
Germany
Maya
Korea
Greece
Japan
Ethiopia (this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
Spain (impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
America (as far as I know hasn't been played up to Rifles with new changes, so maybe minutemen changes are better than I think. Woodsmen feels pretty useless by that point of the game though, and Guerilla only ok)

Another catagory that I haven't gone through and made a list for yet are the civs that feel pretty useless without trait-synergy. These I feel like could use small buffs to their non-trait-synergistic aspects to make them a bit more generally interesting. However, they often aren't really that weak, so might be worth leaving off. Good example of civs in this category are Khmer or Russia. And America if it isn't in the above catagory.

So, anyone else interested in working on this? Where working means thinking of what changes to make to what civs, not coding, that should be easy and a bridge to cross when we come to it. I can probably do it myself, never modded civ 4 before but have a reasonable amount of coding experience.

[Old Harry]

I haven't really thought about it enough to have an opinion on which civs are least fun to play, but I'm happy to make dumb suggestions to make the list you wrote more fun. Presumably they have to be start tech, UU or UB related?

Germany
(Hunting, Mining, Kannone, Assembly Plant at Steam Power)
- Give the Kannone a promo? Accuracy or Barrage or just some free XP? It's hard to give them anything earlier in the tech tree as Germany only existed for the last 200 years.

Maya
(Mysticism, Mining, Holkan, Ball Court)
- Should the Colosseum be cheaper? Or give the Holkan Blitz .

Korea
(Agriculture, Mining, Hwacha, Seowon)
- the Seowon is a disappointingly small bonus on a building you only tend to build to enable Oxford anyway, would +50% science or +25% science, +25% cash make it more attractive? Or maybe it could be cheaper?

Greece
(Fishing, Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon)
- The Phalanx is actually pretty good, saves building spears before HBR, if the Colosseum was cheaper the Odeon would be better.

Japan
(Fishing, The Wheel, Samurai, Pagoda)
- Pagoda is interesting but a bit anti-synergistic. Samaurai's 2 first strikes isn't exciting, perhaps adding Cover automatically would be good - defenders tend to be Longbows at this point in the game...

Ethiopia
(this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
(Oromo Warrior, Stele, Hunting, Mining)
- the Stele is only really useful for culture wars, if it didn't go obsolete with Astronomy then it could be handy for a culture victory too?

Spain
(impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
(Fishing, Mysticism, Conquistador, Citadel)
- Actually I think the Conquistador is improved by the tech cost increases giving it a longer lifespan, so I don't think this needs further buffing

America
(Fishing, Agriculture, Minuteman - rifle with G1 W1, Mall - grocer with happy)
- 2XP gives you a hill or forest 2-mover, 5XP gives you G3 for a bonus attacking hills and a 50% withdrawal chance. Or 16XP for C1 M1 W3 gives a 25% medic if you can't spare a great general for a 45% medic. I don't think it really needs the buff...

[Commodore]

Germany
(Hunting, Mining, Kannone, Assembly Plant at Steam Power)
- Give the Kannone a promo? Accuracy or Barrage or just some free XP? It's hard to give them anything earlier in the tech tree as Germany only existed for the last 200 years.

Well, Landsknechts...

Maya
(Mysticism, Mining, Holkan, Ball Court)
- Should the Colosseum be cheaper? Or give the Holkan Blitz .

Creative, it's excellent. Only Mining/Myst option too. Holkans get drill one!

Korea
(Agriculture, Mining, Hwacha, Seowon)
- the Seowon is a disappointingly small bonus on a building you only tend to build to enable Oxford anyway, would +50% science or +25% science, +25% cash make it more attractive? Or maybe it could be cheaper?

How about 1-2 less required for Oxford unlock?

Greece
(Fishing, Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon)
- The Phalanx is actually pretty good, saves building spears before HBR, if the Colosseum was cheaper the Odeon would be better.

I've been Creative Greeks twice, I like 'em. No issue with the start techs better IMO.

Japan
(Fishing, The Wheel, Samurai, Pagoda)
- Pagoda is interesting but a bit anti-synergistic. Samaurai's 2 first strikes isn't exciting, perhaps adding Cover automatically would be good - defenders tend to be Longbows at this point in the game...

Drill 1 and cover? Not bad. Or go a totally different route...strip those first strikes/drill but make them 2-move!

Ethiopia
(this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
(Oromo Warrior, Stele, Hunting, Mining)
- the Stele is only really useful for culture wars, if it didn't go obsolete with Astronomy then it could be handy for a culture victory too?

No idea, but I think it's probably okay. Maybe Stele cheaper?

Spain
(impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
(Fishing, Mysticism, Conquistador, Citadel)
- Actually I think the Conquistador is improved by the tech cost increases giving it a longer lifespan, so I don't think this needs further buffing

Eh, no big opinion.

America
(Fishing, Agriculture, Minuteman - rifle with G1 W1, Mall - grocer with happy)
- 2XP gives you a hill or forest 2-mover, 5XP gives you G3 for a bonus attacking hills and a 50% withdrawal chance. Or 16XP for C1 M1 W3 gives a 25% medic if you can't spare a great general for a 45% medic. I don't think it really needs the buff...

Yeah, Mall is good, this is fine.

[GermanJoey]

Some thoughts:

Germany: Harry, the Zulu have an ancient-era unit despite only existing from the 18th to 19th century... a similar sort of observation could be made about the Inca, Aztecs, Mali, Maya, etc... I haven't played with Kannone much, but at least on paper they sound pretty good. A solid hammer city in this era (lots of food + tons of caste workshops) will produce 36-40 raw hammers or so, which is 45 with a forge on the low end and 90 with a forge+HE on the high end. That's a cannon a turn when you otherwise couldn't... pretty good for rushing with them with on a Steel beeline, I think. If that's not enough, a free Accuracy promo seems good, as that's not a promo you tend to spam but opens up some unique tactical advantages you would not otherwise have. Free Barrage I seems way too strong, especially since Barrage III, now just 5-XP away, gives +10% against gunpowder. Straight-up "MOAR POWAR" upgrades need a delicate tough I think... might be OK if Kannone cost 120 hammers again.... Alternatively, I note that free Drill I+II promotions would be both interesting and "feel" pretty German...

Maya/Greece: Both of these Colosseum UBs are really great I think, but only if you're Cre. Otherwise, they're still "OK," but probably not something you'd build a lot of. That's similar to a lot of other UBs, IMHO. For example, Exp has Cothons, Forum, Barays, Malls, and Hammams, Cre also has the Salon, Garden, and Hippodrome, and Agg has the Ikhanda. IMHO, I think the bigger problem is that Cre is broadly considered really weak in the RtR trait meta, and if you're not considering Cre then you won't rate a civ with a Cre-UB very highly. I agree with OH that the Phalanx is a pretty good UU, although I don't understand what giving the Holkan Blitz will do. Don't you need 2 movement points to take advantage of this?? Is there some kind of upgrade path I'm not thinking of?

Korea: The Seowon is pretty lame right now, I agree, but I just want to point out that the Hwacha is a pretty solid and unique UU, IMHO. A civ doesn't *have* to have both a good UU and UB, especially with such great starting techs. China, for example, is in the similar position of solid UU and techs but forgettable UB.

Spain: I agree with dtay, the fact that the UB can - and very probably will, according to patterns in PB22 - obsolete before you even get the tech to build it is, I think, a huge problem. Krill's buff to Free Speech helps a lot on many map types, but not all of them. On some maps beelining Economics is still the right move. For example, even if we were using RtR 2.0.7.4. in PB22, my Carthage or Gawdzak's Zulu do not have a lot of room for cottages; a Spanish civ in either of our positions would probably still prefer Free Market over Free Speech, given the choice between them, and thus be forced to insta-obsolete their UB again. It's a shame, because Spain's unique stuff is considered really great in SP play, where its much more reasonable to get Steel before Economics for 10XP Cannons, and where its very likely your Conquistadors will face armies full of maces and pikes instead of muskets and knights. I think if castles obsoleted way later in the tech tree this UB would be considered good again... say, at the very least, let castles expire at Corporation or Steam Power, or perhaps if Economics only prevented the player from building new Castles but didn't obsolete the effects of already built ones (i.e. the espionage bonus, the extra trade route, and the Citadel's extra XP).

America: I agree again with dtay that the Woody promotion is completely useless by the Ren era - where the hell are you going to find jungles and trees here? Maybe in a couple spots along the border with your neighbors? Woody III medics are overrated, an Agg rifle w/ Medic II is about the same. Guerilla I, OTOH, is interesting, but its so lame compared to what the Celts get. Maybe also give them G2 and W2, in addition to G1 and W1? Or maybe, take away G1 and W1 but give them the ability "Can Use Enemy Roads." (but not Railroads) It would be kinda like a pseudo-Commando ability that doesn't come with them when they upgrade. Alternatively, W1+G1 + "movement costs through forests and hills are reduced by half", so that they get the effect of both G2 and W2 straight outta the draft without needing to waste promos. The Mall is pretty good with Exp, IMHO.

Japan: Blah whatever. ADR gives Samurai Drill IV, IIRC. They still suck against Knights, but it at least makes them worth building for Tokugawa, if only just to upgrade into uber rifles. (C1 + Drill I-IV for just 5 xp, heh)

[Krill]

I can't believe it's taken me a week to even see this.

[Krill]

I agree that RtR seems to be on cool down, which is pretty much because it is fairly stable. But I can't agree more that the civs need to be revisited.

What I'm hoping is that some of the changes in the new development mod can be ported over to RtR: the change to the starting techs each civ recieves (but not the changes to the techs themselves), the changes in the tech costs, are one such change that I hope can make it over soon. I think that with this in place the civs will continue to be broadly balanced like they are now in 2.0.7.4, but teh tech issues from huge maps should disappear.

After that it's just making the UB and UU seem fun to play. Personally, the changes that are listed in the development mod are good enough for a first pass and could fit into RtR reasonably well, but I would appreciate more input into them. FWIW, the only real nerfs are to Zulu and Egypt effectiveness against archers. Everything else is pretty much a buff for UU and UB. Alternative ideas are welcome, I'm not enamoured by any of the proposed changes in the development mod except Germany.

Below is a list of those changes. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated:

Japan:: Unique Building: Pagoda, Observatory replacement. +25% beakers. +25% production of Military units, +1 scientist slot. +100% production with Creative. Cost 150 hammers. Requries Astronomy. Unique Unit: Samurai, Maceman replacement. Strength 8. +50% against melee units, +2 free strikes, start with Drill 4. Cost 70 hammers. Requires Civil Service, Machinery.

Spain: Unique Building: Citedal, castle replacement. +50% city defence, +1 trade route, +5XP to siege units. +100% production with stone. Cost 100 hammers, requires Engineering. Unique Unit: Conquestador, Cuirassier replacement. Strength 12. +10% retreat. +50% against Melee, Archery units. Cost 90 hammers. Requires Military Tradition, Gunpowder, Horseback Rifing, horse.

Rome: Unique Building: Forum, Market replacement. +25% gold,. +50% great people points, +2 Merchant slots. +100% production with Expansive. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Currency. Unique Unit: Preatorian, Swordsman replacement. Strength 7, +50% city attack. Cost 45 hammers. Requries Iron Working.

India: Unique Building: Mausoleum, Jail replacement. +2 happy, +50% Espionage points, +4 Espionage Points. -50% War Weariness. Unique unit: Fast worker. Movement: 2. Starts with mobility. Requires Machinery. cost: 60 hammers, foodhammer unit.

America: Unique Building: Mall, Grocer replacement. +1 happy from Deer, Sugar, Hit Musicals, Films, Singles, +1 health from Sugar, Wines, Spices, Banana. +25% gold., +2 Merchant slots. Unique Unit: Minuteman, Rifleman replacement. Starts with Woodsman 1, guerilla 1. Cost 110 hammers, requries Rifling.

Netherlands: Unique Building: Levee. Breakwater replacement. water tiles: +2 hammers, +1 commerce. Requires Steampower. Cost 120 hammers. Double production by Charismatic.

Byzantine: Unique Building: Hippodrome, Theatre replacement. +3 culture,.+2 artist slots, +1 happiness from horse, +2XP from horse, +2 happy per 10% culture slider. +100% production with Creative. Cost 50 hammers, requires Aesthetics. Unique Unit: Cataphract, knight replacement. Strength 11. Cost 90 hammers. Requires Guilds, Horseback Riding, horse, iron.

Vikings: Unique Building: Trading Post, Lighthouse replacement. +25% naval unit production, +1 food from none resource water tiles. Cost 40 hammers. +100% production with Organized. Requires Pier, Sailing. Unique Unit: Berzerker, Maceman replacement. Strength 8. Starts with Amphibeous., +50% against melee units. Cost 70 hammers. Requires Civil Service, Machinery.

Celts: Unique Building: Dun, wall replacement. Gives Guerilla 2 promotion to units built in this city. +100% production with Protective, +100% production with stone. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Masonry.Unique Unit: Gallic Sword, starts with Guerilla 1. Strength 6. Requries copper or iron, Iron Working. Cost 40 hammers.

Carthage: Unique Building: Cothon, Harbour replacement. +1XP, +1 hammer from water based resources, +1 health from crab, clam, fish. +1 trade route.. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Currency. +100% production with Expansive. Unique Building: Numidian Mercenary, Horse Archer Replacement. Strength 6. Starts with Combat 1. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, horses.

England: Unique Building: Stock Exchange, Bank replacement. +65% gold, +100% prodcution with Financial. Cost 200 hammers, requires Banking. Unique Unit: Redcoat, Rifleman replacement. Strength 16, +25% against mounted units. Draftable. Cost 110 hammers. Requires Rifling, Gunpowder.

Portugal: Unique Building. Feitoria, Custom House replacement. +1 commerce from water tiles. +100% trade route yield. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Economics. +100% production with Imperialistic. Unique Unit: Carrick, Caravel replacement. Capacity: 2 units. Strength 3. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Optics.

Egypt: Unique Building: Obelisk, Monument replacement. +1 culture. +2 priest slots. Cost 30 hammers, requires Mysticism. Unique Unit: War Chariot, chariot replacement. Strength 5. -25% against archery units. Cost 30 hammers. Requires Wheel, horse.

France: Unique Building: Salon, Observatory replacement. +1 free specialist, +25% beakers, +1 scientist slot. Cost 150 hammers, requires Astronomy +100% production with Creative. Unique Unit: Musketeer, musketman replacement. Strength 9, 2 movement points. Draftable. Cost 80 hammers, requires Gunpowder.

Sumeria: Unique Building: Ziggarut, courthouse replacement. -50% city maintenance. Cost 90 hammers, +2 Espionage Points. requires Priesthood. +100% production with Organized. Unique Unit: Vulture, axeman replacement. Strength 6, +25% against melee. Cost 35 hammers. Requires Brozeworking, copper.

Babylon: Unique Building: Garden, Colosseum replacement. +1 happy, +2 health, +25% unit production, +2XP with Theatre, +1 happy per 20% culture slider. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Construction. +100% production with Creative. Unique Unit: Bowman, archer replacement. +50% against melee, +50% city defense, +50% hill defence, +1 free strike. Cost 25 hammers, requires Archery.

Mongolia: Unique Building: Ger, stable replacement. +3 XP for mounted units, +1 XP for land units. +1 hammer from pastures. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding. Unique Unit: Keshik, Horse Archer replacement. Starts with mobility. +1 free strike. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Horseback Riding, Archery, horse.

Native Americans.: Unique Building: Totem Pole, Monument replacement. +2XP for Archery Units, +1 XP for land units, +2XP for Gunpowder units. +1 culture. Cost 30 hammers, requires Mysticism. Unique Unit: Dog Soldier, axeman replacement. Strength 4, +100% against melee units. Cost 35 hammers, requires Bronzeworking, Copper.

Ottomans: Unique Building: Hammam, aqueduct replacement. +2 happy, +2 health. Cost 100 hammers. Requires Math, Masonry. +100% production with Expansive. Unique ubnit: Janissary, musketman replacement. Strength 9, +25% against melee, archery, mounted. Cost 80 hammers, requires Gunpowder.

Aztecs: Unique Building: Sacrifical Alter, courthouse replacement. -50% city maintenance, -50% length of unhappiness from slavery +2 Espionage Points. Cost 90 hammers. Requires Code of Laws. +100% production with Organized. Unique unit: Jaguar warrior, swordsman replacement. Strength 5. Starts with Woodsman 2. +50% city attack. Cost 40 hammers. Requries Ironworking.

Mali: Unique Building: Mint, Forge replacement. +25% production. +15% unit production. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Metal Casting. +100% production with Industrious. Unique unit: Skirmisher, archer replacement. Strength 4. +1 free strike, +1 free strike chance. Cost 30. Requires Archery.

Inca: Unique Building: Terrace, Granary replacement. +1 culture, save 50% of food after growth. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Pottery. +100% production with Protective. Unique unit: Quechua, warrior replacement. +100% against archery units. Cost 15 hammers.

Maya: Unique Building: Ball Court, Colosseum replacement. +3 happy. +25% military unit production, +1 happy per 20% culture slider, +2XP from Theatre. +100% prodcution with Creative. Cost 80 hammers. Requires Construction. Unique Unit: Holkan. Spear replacement. +100% against Mounted units. Cost 35 hammers. Requires Hunting, Bronzeworking.

Persia: Unique Building: Apothecary, Grocer replacement. +4 Merchant slots, +25% gold, +2 health. +100% production with Expansive. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Guilds. Unique Unit: Immortal, chariot replacement. Strength 4. +50% against Archery units. Cost 30 hammers, requires The Wheel, horse.

Zulu: Unique Building: Ikhanda, barracks replacement. +3XP for land units, +1 culture, -20% city maintenance. +10)% production with Aggressive. Cost 60 hammers. Unique Unit: Impi, spear replacement. Strength 4, +100% against mounted units, 2 movement points. Cost 35 hammers, Requires Bronzeworking, Hunting, copper,

Arabia: Unique Building: Madrassa, Library replacement. +25% beakers, +2 scientist slots, +2 priest slots, +2 culture. Cost 70 hammers. Requires Writing. Unique Unit: Camel Archer, Knight replacement. Strength 10, 20% withdraw chance. Requires Guilds, Horseback Riding.

China: Unique Building: Pavilion, Theatre replacement. +3 culture, +2 Artist slots.+2XP with Colosseum. +100% production with Creative. Cost 30 hammers. Requires Aesthetics. Unique Unit: Cho-Ko-Nu, Crossbow replacement. Strength 6, +50% against melee. Can collateral. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Machinery, iron.

Korea: Unique Building: Seowon., university replacement.+35% beakers. +3 culture. +100% production with Philosophical. Cost 150 hammers. Requires Education, library. Unique Unit: H’wacha, catapult replacement. Strength 5. +50% against melee units. Can collateral. Cost 50 hammers. Requires Construction.

Ethiopia: Unique Building: Stele, monument replacement. +2 Merchant slots, +1 culture. Cost 30 hammers, requires Mysticism. Unique Unit: Oromo Warrior, musketman replacement. Starts with Drill 1, 2. Cost 80 hammers. Requries Gunpowder.

Germany: Assembly Plant, Forge replacement. +25% production. +5% production from copper, iron, gold, silver, coal. Cost 120 hammers. Requries Metal Casting. +100% production with Industrious. Unique Unit: Kanone, cannon replacement, Strength 12. Cost: 80 hammers. Requires Steel, iron.

Khmer: Unique Building: Baray, Aqueduct replacement. +1 food, +2 health. +100% production with Epxansive. Cost 80 hammers, requires Math, Masonry. Unique Unit: Balista Elephant, war elephant replacement. Strength 7. +50% against Mounted units. Targets Mounted units first outside of cities. Cost 60 hammers. Requries Construction, Horseback Riding.

Russia: Unique Building: Research Laboratory, University replacement. +25% beakers, +1 free scientist. +3 culture. +100% production with Philosophical. Cost 150 hammers, requires Education, Library. Unique Unit: Cossack, Cavalry replacement. Strength 15. +50% against Mounted units. +20% withdraw chance. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Military Tradition, Rifling, horse.

HRE: Unique Building: Rathaus, Courthouse replacement. -75% city maintenance., +2 Espionage Points. +100% production with Organized. Cost 120 hammers. Requires Code of Laws. Unique Unit: Landsneckt, Pikeman replacement. Strength 6, +100% against Mounted, Melee units. Cost 60 hammers. Requires Engineering, iron.

Fish/Wheel - Japan/ROME/Spain/INDIA

Fish/Agri - America/Dutch/Byzantine

Fish/Hunting - Greek/Vikings/CELTS

Fish/Myst -

Fish/Mining - Carthage/England/Portugal

Wheel/Agri - Egypt/France/Sumeria/Babylon

Wheel/Hunting - Mongolia/NA/OTTOMAN/AZTECS

Wheel/Myst -

Wheel/Mining - Mali/INCA/MAYA

Agri/Hunting - Persia/Zulu/ARABIA

Agri/Myst -

Agri/Mining - China/KOREA/Ethiopia

Hunting/Myst -

Hunting/Mining - Germany/Khmer/Russia/HRE

Myst/Mining -

[Krill]

Germany: Personally, I think that moving the UB back to being a forge with something based around hammers works quite nicely for Germany; the UU is just a power spike based on being able to build more. I prefer flavour to be based on UB rather than UU, but if the UU was going to be buffed then I feel that free promotions give power but not flavour.


Maya: There's a problem with Maya? +3 happy is pretty nice, the UU gives a good safety net. I suppose I could see dropping the hammer cost on the UB to 60 hammers but I think the main issues with Maya are the starting techs and the implementation of tech cost scaling should remove that issue.


Korea: I think that H'wacha are pretty nice, rather underrated because of the effect it has on slowmover stacks. I don't think that needs a change. I agree that the UB is meh though. How does it compare to the free spec from the Research Institute though? Personally, I feel that Universities should all be lowered in cost to 150 anyway and that OU cost is increased, would this alleviate the issue?


Greece: UU is good due not having any counters, UB has niche usages: the ability to rush Construction and Artist bomb is scary. If that were to be removed from the Odeon, then there is space to fit on a lot more power of some description. I'm not sure if it's justified though, perhaps removing one of hte artist slots and moving the Odeon forward to Maths is better; it's an 80 hammer building that provides 2 happy plus niche spec, compared to a temple that's good.


Japan: UB is pretty meh. UU sounds cool but is meh. I think that the development mod changes are a step forward in this regard, but are probably overkill for RtR:

Unique Building: Pagoda, Observatory replacement. +25% beakers. +25% production of Military units, +1 scientist slot. +100% production with Creative. Cost 150 hammers. Requries Astronomy. Unique Unit: Samurai, Maceman replacement. Strength 8. +50% against melee units, +2 free strikes, start with Drill 4. Cost 70 hammers. Requires Civil Service, Machinery.

Ethiopia (this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool). I just like the idea of giving it 2 merchant spec slots.


Spain (impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me). Moving the UB to Machinery helps with those issues. I believe that Free Speech may need to assume the +100% cottage growth mechanic from Emancipation to be balanced but that change would definitely mean Spain wouldn't need anything new.


America (as far as I know hasn't been played up to Rifles with new changes, so maybe minutemen changes are better than I think. Woodsmen feels pretty useless by that point of the game though, and Guerilla only ok). I think that the UU is a bit meh, but it would be OK if the UB were more interesting. Personally, I believe that changing the UB to be a good Barracks replacement would be enough. Something like happy from copper and iron.

[dtay]

Oops missed people had responded to this for the past few days.

Two kind of general notes before I give some scattered responses to the particular civs:

1) I think it's worth reiterating that it's not that these civs are unplayable or even have nothing going for them (some are kind cool), but that there is very clearly a good bit of space between these civs and the top tier of civs in quality such that there's room for improvement. This might make the whole point nitpicky, but then this is a hobby and I find this discussion fun. And in some of the cases I think the civ def needs buffs, ex: japan.

2) Not enough time to directly respond to everyone (thanks for the responses by the way), but will try to implicitly hit all the points in each civ's discussion. Relatedly, going to tend not to talk about what the actual fixes should be most of the time, but that is purely a time issue on my part and is obviously important.

Germany
The obvious problem is that everything comes too late, and so has comparatively smaller impact on the game. I don't think coming late itself is a death knell, but it means I think the actual bonuses need to be somewhat larger. I actually like the flavor of germany becoming super cool right as the industrial age hits, just think the bonus should be larger if we're keeping it's stuff all so late. It has roughly ancient era "boosts" to UU/UB, but coming at a time where having such a boost is a comparatively small boost to your overall strength (and obviously snowballs less).

I agree (GJ had good description) that Kanone are probably good as they are, and cheapness is a cool "special" for a UU to have (especially a collateral UU). Really it's the UB that feels like a very minor boost.

Maya
Considering this more, I think the problem with Maya is a magnified version of the problem I think still exists with Cha to some degree. Our map design tends to generally give plenty of happy resources which obviates how helpful happy-boosting abiliites are. This is way worse for the Ball Court than Cha though, because the Ball Court requires investment AND because construction comes about the same time you get access to all the calandar resources and get to stop caring about happy for a long while.

It may only be a sample size of 5, but I haven't had a game yet where after calendar I felt myself really at all pushing the happy cap. By the time I went past luxuries + markets-in-top-few-cities-or-so I had HR and enough military units lying around to easily manage happiness in every city, though I still only needed 1 garrison unit in the vast majority and really just needed military to manage transitions. Or put another way, if you gave me access to Ball Courts in all of those games I still probably would have built none of them until the era of drafting.

I don't think this is purely a cre issue, it's an issue of the that bonus being provided by the building is often just not needed. If I was Cre + had Ball Courts I probably would build a few just because of how cheap they were, but even then it wouldn't be THAT much easier to manage happiness, because it really just wasn't hard at all before. And I think having a UB REQUIRE a trait to be worth building is subpar design. I don't think the list of Exp UU's are ones I'd never build without Exp, and even the university UU's will get build without their trait if only for OU.

Holkans are pretty cool. I don't think Maya sucks. But I think it shouldn't have a UB that in many many games I would just literally never consider building.

re:unique start techs - is Mining/Myst a desired option? They may be the only one but this seems like a starting tech combo that would be subpar in the vast majority of starts. The only scenerio I'm really thinking of this would be desirable is if you wanted to go food tech -> religion -> bronze working, but then it's just identical to starting with food-tech/myst anyway and going mining->religion->bronze working. And in that latter case you'd probably want to actually go religion->mining->bronze working most of the time, making food/myst the better option.

Not saying we necessarily need to fix the start techs, just that them having unique start techs isn't really helpful if the start techs aren't actually good.

Sidenote: I actually really want to play CHA in a RtR game. I probably value the happy bonus lower than a lot of people, but I the promo bonus is really good. Longer game times + west-point buff + SoZ + vassalage buff make the promo game a ton more interesting compared to base BTS. In particular, either Cha or Agg is pretty much required for mass produced commandos...

Korea
Eh, I think H'wacha's are accurately cast as meh. The general power of mounted units means they usually won't get their bonus (or even cause a switch in the top defender), and given they are seige the point of what they do isn't particularly tied to the unit they directly attack. You care more about hte collateral, there will probably be mounted units to take the top hit anyway, and even if you did manage to fight a melee unit you can't kill it while attacking.

It seems most relevant actually for making hwatcha's amusingly good stack defenders AGAINST melee units, but how often does that actually come up? They still don't make good city defenders b/c no defense bonuses (making them not a great counter to the newly improved swords), so we're really talking about defending an attacking stack or something from... a bunch of melee units coming to kill it? In the era of stack-on-stack warfare does that actually happen? It seems they help not at all at defending from the standard tactic of hit with collateral then use horses to flank away enemy collateral.

UB i think is less complicatedly just obviously "ok" at best but mostly meh, hampered by the problem that universities just really aren't good for non-Phi civs. I think it's a bit worse than the research institute, which gets extra points in my book for being doubly-synergistic with Phi, which is the only scenario you'd build a ton of them in anyway. More importantly the research institute is attached to Russia, and Cossacks I think are actually solid, as opposed to the Hwatchas.

Fixing this is obviously impacted a lot by any changes to Universities / Oxford, though I find the idea of making Oxford easier to unlock a pretty interesting boost for a UU (though wouldn't the code change actually be for OU?).

Greece
I think i've been convinced Greece is better than I thought.

Japan
That UB seems potentially very cool, but is obviously a large change so I'd have to think more on it. Though I kind of want the Samurai to be something worth building a lot of for purely personal flavor reasons, which is hard given they're a UU to a pretty meh base unit. I liked the 2 move mace idea, though it is probably OP to have 2-movers with access to city raider.

Ethiopia
Krill's proposed fix I actually really like. I think that would put it solidly in the "very good" category, with the bonus of enabling a cool early strategy // being interesting.

Spain
It is possibly that my feelings towards Conquistadors are being biased by weirdly short lifetimes for Cuirs in the games I've played (ex: could build them for maybe 5 turns in PB18, whereas I believe you still have them 20 turns or something after unlock?) But granting that I still think a UB that a majority of the time will be obsolete before it is unlocked is worth fixing. If economics becomes a non-obvious beeline in pretty much all situations, then I think Spain is fine.

America
I like the idea of a barracks replacement for america, agree a good one is enough of a change. Flavor wise I think the two clear choices for America are focusing on the whole "frontier"/colonial america ideal, or alternatively on america's modern economic/military dominance. Base BTS obviously picked the latter, but given the rarity of the true modern era I broadly agree with RtR's decision to move america's boosts to the former.

[AdrienIer]

Maya : How about putting the Ball court at maths, meaning you can forgo calendar a bit longer ? Overkill ?

[Krill]

Regarding American Barracks UB, I have two thoughts: Free Drill 2 seems like a reasonable buff.

Woah I hear you say, Drill is shit.

Xenu suggested these fixes to the Drill promotion line in SMEG mod but they fit in RtR after a test game or two:

D1: +1 FS (up from +1 Free Strike Chance)
D2: +1 FS, -15% collateral damage (-5% collateral reduction, nerf)
D3: +2 FS (rather than 2 FS chances), +10% vs mounted, -15% collateral (moving mounted bonus from D4)
D4: +2 FS, -20% collateral, +10% strength

So D3 becomes a huge plus and D4 is as strong as 2 promotions.

The kicker is that opening up all promotions including commando from the Drill line as well as the combat line should eliminate the utility disparency between the D1 and C1 lines.