[Spoilers] Noble Intentions: Thessalonica of the Elohim starts her quest!

[Northstar1989]

OK, so got Turn 15 in the e-mail shortly after my last post, and continued with the plan...



The Settler will be done in just 9 turns, by the way- but I will be saving a turn on its production vs. not running Conquest on the Warrior (so I lose a turn of food production now, but gain it back again by getting the Settler done sooner, and get my next city up a turn sooner and 2 extra XP on my Warrior- sounds like a good deal to me!)



Something was bothering me, though, and indeed when I checked my progress towards Runes of Kilmorph...



I somehow advanced 51 beakers in just two turns!

That doesn't make any sense based on my base research production (19/18 for the past two turns) and even the +20% bonus for the prereq. What is going on here!

This is a majorly significant difference, because it means it might be possible for the Amurites to cut an additional turn off their research progress towards RoK and beat me too it if suddenly they are at 261+ beakers (if they worked Incense+lake) instead of 243 beakers!


Could somebody please explain to me why I'm advancing an average of 25 beakers per turn towards RoK when my base research production was only 18/19 beakers??? That does NOT fit with a +20% bonus to beaker production rounded down- that's more like +40% rounded down!


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Turn 16 rolled around, and the Amurites still haven't grow yet. Which means they're probably either working a lake tile and the Incense (which probably means they're also rushing for Runes of Kilmorph), or producing a Settler/Worker (otherwise they would have grown by the time I got Turn 13 with even 2 food/turn surplus...)

Either way, they're running out of time to bump up to 3 population and have a chance of beating me to RoK. Assuming my calculations (based on a 20% bonus research factor) were correct- which it's looking like they might not be, they need an IMMEDIATE pop bump (as in by the start of my next turn) to even have a chance of beating me to RoK- and even then only if they've been focusing on Commerce in their citizen assignments this whole time...

Maybe they're not even after RoK after all. Maybe they just improved the Cows with a pasture and moved on to the Wheat- and have been focusing on building a Settler instead (in which case I should see an IMMEDIATE jump in their score when they found another city...) Who knows what the other players are doing? Honestly, I'm not really experienced enough at this score-analysis stuff to say with much confidence...


Anyways, I took my turn:



I've re-assigned my Worker to chopping down another forest. Better to get it done now, and have the benefits of a second city sooner, than to leave it for later. Besides, forests are actually an obstacle to my newest idea... HORSES!

Yeah, that's right, horses. None of the other civs will provide much competition for Ride of the Nine Kings. The Dwarves can't even ride horses (only boars or rhinoceri or something like that). No horse will tolerate being ridden by a foul Orc either. The only other civ that can even build horse units is the Amurites- and their obvious powerhouse is in magic...


The synergy was obvious enough I can't believe I didn't notice it before. The Elohim specialize at building vast, sprawling empires (by leveraging their world spell to provide an early defense against other players). I mean, after all, what good is double-speed temples if you don't have loads of cities to build them in? Smelting is a highly-desirable tech for my leader (with the double-speed forges), and Iron Working is something I'm going to need for Iron Weapons to equip my armies. And, of course, the Order (a natural choice for the good-themed Elohim) has *GREAT* synergy with a sprawling empire, as you can get a snowball effect where Acolytes beget Acolytes some of the time...

Did I mention that Runes of Kilmorph helps with the high upkeep costs of such an empire? And, of course, a large empire is required to have enough hammers for a war machine capable of realizing one of the coolest Elohim traits of all- the ability to conquer other civs' cities and keep their unique buildings and units (the Wizards of the Amurites, or the Warrens of the Clan, for instance...) Too bad the other players will probably draft their cities down to size 1 rather than let me get a hold of any of their cities for *precisely* that reason...


Anyways, with no contest for Ride of the Nine Kings, and a leader who naturally is good at building Wonders (thanks the the Industrious trait), I can count on being able to churn out highly-experienced Knights with the Spirit Guide promotion (which means Knights who fall in the line of battle will pass on their XP to other units- potentially granting me even MORE experienced Knights). Did I mention that having a Spiritual leader also means I can instantly switch into Nationhood/Apprenticeship/Conquest/Theocracy whenever I need to churn out large stacks of units, to get Knights with *16* free starting experience? Or even better yet, Shadowriders if I adopt the Council of Esus (a strange choice for the Elohim from a RP perspective- but the benefits of Shadow Affinity mounted units with a combat point in poison and tons of free starting XP are *NOT* to be underestimated)


Oh yeah, and there's the ability to use Spiritual to switch into Aristocracy and churn out Royal Guards that I then upgrade into Knights. Can somebody (!LURKERS!) inform me on this- do Royal Guards keep their Spirit III and Guardsmen promotions when upgrading into Knights?


Regards,
Northstar

[DaveV]

Too bad the other players will probably draft their cities down to size 1 rather than let me get a hold of any of their cities for *precisely* that reason...

You can only draft a city if it's size six or bigger. Also, a city that has ever been bigger than size one will not be auto-razed, even if it's size one at the time of conquest.

Oh yeah, and there's the ability to use Spiritual to switch into Aristocracy and churn out Royal Guards that I then upgrade into Knights. Can somebody (!LURKERS!) inform me on this- do Royal Guards keep their Spirit III and Guardsmen promotions when upgrading into Knights?

Royal Guards require Social Order, not Aristocracy. That was one of the early changes EitB made from base FfH. On the upgrade question: I think so, but I'd recommend double checking with Worldbuilder before you base your strategy around it; my memory isn't always reliable.

[Northstar1989]

You can only draft a city if it's size six or bigger. Also, a city that has ever been bigger than size one will not be auto-razed, even if it's size one at the time of conquest.

That's good to know.

Royal Guards require Social Order, not Aristocracy. That was one of the early changes EitB made from base FfH. On the upgrade question: I think so, but I'd recommend double checking with Worldbuilder before you base your strategy around it; my memory isn't always reliable.

Indeed, I checked it and you're right- but that makes ZERO sense! Social Order is the Order (religion) specific civic. Royal Guards (a royalty/aristocracy-themed unit) should *NOT* require the Order religion to be built- yet this is precisely the effect of that change. I'll have to take that up with Q at some point in the future- that change was just inexcusable from a lore standpoint...

Still, it does add extra incentive for me to found the Order religion, or at least switch to it. The question still stands: do Royal Guards keep their Spirit III and Guardsmen free promotions when upgrading to Knights?


Regards,
Northstar

[Mardoc]

Well, the fundamental issue is that Aristocracy was too powerful. Probably still is. So Royal Guards need to be tied to something else, to keep from having One Right Answer - or else Aristocracy needs another nerf to take its place. Maybe Social Order isn't the right place either. Although Order still feels on the weak end.

Remember, EitB is intended primarily as a multiplayer balance mod. Lore is nice, when you can keep it, but it's not a trump card like it might be in singleplayer.

I've never seen a unit fail to keep promotions when upgrading, even if the new unit can't have them. But...worldbuilider testing is pretty straightforward. Just start a new single player game, go to the menu, hit 'enter worldbuilder', then give yourself all the techs and civics you need for your test, as well as a Royal Guardsman. Then upgrade him and see what happens.

[Northstar1989]

Well, the fundamental issue is that Aristocracy was too powerful. Probably still is. So Royal Guards need to be tied to something else, to keep from having One Right Answer - or else Aristocracy needs another nerf to take its place. Maybe Social Order isn't the right place either. Although Order still feels on the weak end.

Remember, EitB is intended primarily as a multiplayer balance mod. Lore is nice, when you can keep it, but it's not a trump card like it might be in singleplayer.

Good point.

I've never seen a unit fail to keep promotions when upgrading, even if the new unit can't have them. But...worldbuilider testing is pretty straightforward. Just start a new single player game, go to the menu, hit 'enter worldbuilder', then give yourself all the techs and civics you need for your test, as well as a Royal Guardsman. Then upgrade him and see what happens.

Hmm, well, I know that the disciple-type units are currently bugged in that they lose their Favored promotion when the upgrade into other unit types (which wasn't meant to happen). I wonder what other units might be bugged...


Also, I took my turn, and my Scout encountered a Griffon!



Luckily it left to the south instead of attacking this turn. Still, I'll have to make sure my Scout keeps his wits about him going forward...


Also, still no word on population-growth from the Amurites. I'm starting to think, more and more, that maybe they just went and started work on a Settler after reaching size 2 instead of rushing for Runes of Kilmorph... I'm not sure if that's a good thing (I won't have competition for RoK) or a bad thing (the other civs are growing rapidly) though...


Regards,
Northstar

[HidingKneel]

Royal Guards upgraded to Knights will keep Guardsman and Spirit promotions.

Not all promotions are kept. For example, if you have a melee/recon/archery unit with Enchanted Blade/Poisoned Blade/Flaming Arrows, then those promotions are lost if you upgrade to a unit of a different type. You'll also lose metal weapons if you upgrade to a unit that can't use them (warrior -> archer loses Bronze, say).

I agree that Royal Guard at Social Order is a bad choice. There was a proposal to move it to Feudalism, but somebody objected that it was a boost the Calabim who didn't need it. Feudalism makes sense to me, both thematically and to boost an otherwise lackluster tech (if needed for balance, you could always add Royal Guards to the list of units the Calabim can't build).

Not sure I agree that Order is on the weak end. With a decent size empire, Order can give you a lot of free units. Ashen Veil can give you a lot more if you're willing to invest in it, but Order is easier to reach and pays off sooner.

[Northstar1989]

OK, so another turn, another forest explored... Wait a second! :EEK:



My Scout has managed NOT ONLY to find the Griffon again, but another Ruin! (I assume there's one somewhere to the northeast, close to where I encountered that Lizardman before...)

He was then promptly attacked by the Griffon at the end of my turn...



And WON! By the skin of his teeth (only 0.3 STR left), but he managed to defeat the Griffon- and gain 3 XP out of the fight! 2 more and I'll be able to give him the Subdue Animal promotion! (so it might be worth investing in a Hunting Lodge so I can upgrade my Scout into a Hunter before he becomes something's dinner...)


Also, my Warrior, when scouting a bit to the northwest (before heading to where I will found my next city- probably somewhere to the east near Odio's Prison for the defensive bonus...) encountered a Giant Tortoise!



I guess naval travel is going to be relatively hazardous in this game as well...


Also, LURKERS, I'll have to pick the site for my next city soon... You guys have seen quite a bit of the terrain to the east over the past 4-5 pages (and I'll post another picture next turn). Any ideas of what might be good places to found my next cities?


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

As promised, here's a zoomed-out view of the area to the east, where I plan on founding my 2nd city. I'm thinking the tile to the southwest of the Gold looks good- it's got Fresh Water, easy access to a Gold mine, it's within range of Horses and Rice, and it leaves room for two nearby cities: one to the north of the Horses, and one due west of the Dye (on the Plains Hill- which is awesome because it gives the city defense benefits and an extra base hammer production...)



Also, my Scout took a closer look at that second Lizardman Ruin... Hopefully another unit doesn't spawn there before he can return to my terrirory and heal up...



And, I've confirmed that the land to the northwest is indeed a dead-end peninsula, as I previously guessed. The nice thing about that location is that I could easily found a third city there without having to worry about building a Warrior first- Barbarians can't spawn inside my territory (or my line-of-sight, for that matter), and there are no amphibious barbarian units that I know of other than animals (which can't enter my territory), so that leaves me free to focus on growing out my population rather than setting up an early defense...




Additionally, I was surprised to learn my score had skyrocketed to 2nd-place. I took a look at my score breakdown, and apparently most of it was due to my recent border-pop. The other civs, however, have a LOT more population that I thought they did- as a look at the statistics and Demographics screens quickly revealed...







One of my rivals (presumably the Dwarves- due to their quicker Worker work-rate) already has a city with 6 population! Yikes! :YIKES:

I can only guess, though, that with population totals like that, neither of them are anywhere near building a second-city (the Settler would have halted city growth), so I *MAY* have a trick up my sleeve for them VERY SOON!

Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

You are partially correct regarding the score. You have to own land for twenty turns before it adds to your score, so the jump was given based on the original land claimed when you settled your capital.

Your demographics(and screenshots) show that you currently control 33 land tiles, so that's the number that will be a factor in your score twenty turns from now.