WW35: Not Another TPS Report [Game Thread]

[zakalwe]

My take is that post #194 is a typical scum-Lewwyn post. So you may be arguing with scum.

Seems like Lewwyn just backed out of his own accusation against Ichabod, through some fairly shaky logic, while reinforcing his suspicion against Q.

[Jowy]

That question by Ichabod was awkward yeah.

I could still go for a Lewwyn wagon despite that. I don't like that he backed away from that read, and I don't like that he discarded Innocent Child.

Lewwyn

[Jkaen]

So you agree with Lewwyn's read.

You note that he discarded a role far less powerful than others have discarded.

Then you jump on the latest bandwagon to be swinging through town?

[Jowy]

So you agree with Lewwyn's read.

You note that he discarded a role far less powerful than others have discarded.

Then you jump on the latest bandwagon to be swinging through town?

I agree with Lewwyn's read, but not his conclusion. One awkward question is far from a clear scum tell. Which he probably realized for himself and backed away from his own read.

Innocent Child is in my opinion third strongest role discarded after Doctor and Hider, and second most suspicious after Doctor. You don't have to agree with my opinion but at least respect it.

It's not a bandwagon yet but here's hoping.

Getting deja vu from last game, Jkaen is probably town again.

[Ichabod]

Reading the thread.

The exchange between Ichabod and dtay is really interesting. (posts 49-59) I'm not going to quote the whole thing. Basically Ichabod accusing dtay of being meta-y wolf. Honestly it sounds a little bit like a wolf going in on a townie, getting rebuffed and backtracking slowly. When Ichabod asks, "What do you think about this?" It looks like he's looking for his final way out and to make his earlier throwing of suspicion seem less intent.

FoS: Ichabod

To be perfectly clear about those comments, I was fishing for a Qgqq jump vote on dtay. I was voting Qgqq (and I think others too at the time already) and he was arguing with dtay. I made a post against dtay (with valid reasoning I think, otherwise the idea wouldn't work), to see if Qg would go for a follow up vote based on it, which would be very suspicious by Qg. But he didn't do it.

dtay asked me to explain what my post was about, so I did. And I added the question to try and put him out of his confort zone. I think extremely analytical persons may have some difficulty with on the spot questions and wanted to see how he'd react.

Well, that was the theory behind it. Unfortunately internet mafia is not a Sherlock Holmes book...

And I'm not seeing the villager vibes on dtay. His play seems consistent with bright guy playing his first mafia. ig explanation posts + snippets of reads ("I like him", "I don't like him").

Didn't know you had timezone issues Lewwyn, thought you were just lurking. Reason for dropping IC makes sense, and apparently it agrees with your meta.

I don't agree that if who discarded what wasn't revealed that the town would've been able to get everyone to claim their discarded roles, certainly not to the same level of reliability as Brick's list. Plus it would benefit scum to find out which town players had strong roles - and thus had probably chosen even stronger roles. Likely would have made those players less willing to claim.

Gazglum disappeared after the first couple dozen posts. Maybe just IRL conflict, but he didn't mention any.

No vote for now until I wake up tomorrow. Probably will vote for Qgqq or novice when lynching time comes, they're still the most suspicious for me.

I don't like Fenn's posts. This whole strategy of probing someone that had a good town role discarded than backing off as soon as that person posted... I don't see a point in such a strategy, it's planned outside of what's happening in the thread (it ignores the actual content) and that's a wolf move in my opinion.

And comments like the one about Gazglum are just filler.

And I don't like the no vote too. Specially when combined with "I'll probably vote for X or Y later".

I don't like a lot of things. I'm grumpy!

I'm really not reading Q as excited. Where do you see that?

post 31 (his starting).
Ichabod thought it crafted , you thought it scummy - I got an 'He is excited'-feeling (also in a way his post 43).

To clarify my thoughts about Qgqq and what I meant by crafted post. It's not that I think he opened a text manager and spent a long time tinkering with it. It just seem to me like he thought himself in a situation where he needed to make a good post so as to get suspicion off him. It seemed to me like a post he thought more than the usual about what strategy he'd use and how he could convey a certain feeling. And the italics and things like that seem to me like what you'd do when checking a post for a second/third time, which, at least in Qgqq's case, I think he'd only do when trying to make certain his post managed to achieve something (usually he seems to be a pretty "liberal" poster, if that makes sense - just posting whatever).

And the timing of the post makes my impression about this get stronger. It wasn't right at the beggining of the game, it was after Brick's announcement. That's purely guessing, but I think he found out about the roles revealed being tied to the player's name and started thinking about what to do, while spending some time to send a message to BRick about him being a bad man.

Lots of speculation, but that's my thought process.

@Rowain. I guess if you read it literally, that opening post does convey some excitement. I interpreted it as fake excitement, with a dash of sarcasm and a hint of resignation.

Agreed. Specially the part about the resignation.

I interpreted it as fake excitement, with a dash of sarcasm and a hint of resignation.

Wouldn't that indicate another town-role for him?

No. He'd already be over the bad feeling of having to choose town again, because the choice was a couple of days before the actual game. So he wouldn't show that resignation on the thread. I think that, if he showed it on the thread, it probably just happened. And the only frustration I can see happening at the start of the game are the role reveals tied to players.

Caught up for the time being. As with the other two day one games, there isn't a lot of definitive information going around yet. What does stand out to me however, is Qg.

This excuse sounds just absolutely terrible to me. It cites some nebulous other site forum game, claims that more roles makes a role blocker weaker, and claims "oh I'm bad, so I didn't want an important role." I don't know Qg all that well, but this seems very off for him.

What?

Let's go through those one by one. Nebulous other forum game here. Feel free to read all 3000 posts if you want - I was the Batman, a jailer/neighborizer that only worked on mislynches. Where do I say that more roles make a blocker worse? Of course, obviously a proclivity of town roles as opposed to mafia ones does, but that's hardly the point. I stated that I didn't want to discuss it deeply (obviously I rejected it for a better role, but didn't want to be too explicit on that matter), and stated some reasons why I dislike that role in general. I actually do happen to be bad with roles, but I'd certainly never turn down a better role on that bias.

I've stated in the past that I'm too much of a greater-good poster for my own good (look at, say, the day-vig game, where I was one of the stupid people trying to make order out of the chaos). There's no way I'd ever turn down a power role for say, vanilla, or miller, or tourist, and I've no idea where you got that idea.

This is a stupid argument for a wagoned vote. When I'm lynched, look at this easy and badly-thought out vote.

I think vanilla cop is a good role on this setup, as it helps you eliminate roles. Seems like we have a ton of rehected vanillas, though, so maybe I'm wrong there.

Fenns comment at the start about voting someone for their position in the list just felt really weak- justifying overmuch.

Dtays comment about lynching those who rejected power roles seems quite flawed, really - sure there might be some scum among them, but there's also likely to be the best town roles. I don't think we want to draw those into the open - certainly not this early.

@Fenn, 3 cops if we count the lover.

So let's just not lynch anyone? Right now, dropped roles is the only solid information we have to go on. Saying that it's odd to drop roleblocker, or doctor, and putting pressure and or pushing for a lynch, is completely reasonable at this point. I think you have rapidly reached the point where you need to out yourself like Novice, or face the Engineer Posse. We have the education to build a very effective gallows. Just saying.

Qgqqqqq

WTF? Again, where do I say not to pressure them? Or not to lynch them (or me, for that matter)? What I was - and am! - saying is that going for a mass claim, or trying to pressure a claim out of people who are clearly likely to have very strong roles is stupid, and anti-town. We don't want that happening day 1, IMO.

The combination of going for such an easy late wagon post - which you clearly read earlier, and felt no reason to jump on until after I'd already built up a sizable following - and the way you're so eagerly pressuring another claim is something I find very suspicious.

Seriously, look at the timing and location of his earlier posts. In his first post, which came after both the above posts were made, he not only made no mention of me, but instead went down the list of role tosses (not finding mine odd), and finds novice suspicious - at a time when his votes were trending. (Not only that, but it's a very wishy-washy post, one that leaves quite open to jumping off and fishes for roles. Look at his comment on novice - "What would it take to throw that away, except for maybe the obvious mafia choices." - fishing for roles, and with an obvious response/defense - that is a claim.)

His second post is a back off on novice after the claim, an obvious and reasonable move. BTW, could you explain why you mentioned him as Godfather specifically? You don't seem to have any reason to have thought that over another wolf-role.

His other post/stuff is just meta around the Hider, and then this post - which, as I've said, stinks to high heaven.

Jabbz

What do you mean by the bolded part?

I think Qgqq just needs to claim his role at this point. The other option seems to be wasting the day by claiming at the last minute.

No. I'll claim in about 20 hours, if I'm still up top, but I'm not going to do it halfway through the day.

Ichabod's posts so far seem genuine. His wolf tell on Qgq was really insightful (Qgqq spending time crafting the post).

Look, this is just demonstrably false. If this is seriously being used as a tell, let's look at it:

It's happening!!!!

[Day one LYNCH! Day one LYNCH! Day one LYNCH!]

Lynchpocalypse is coming, my friends. It comes for us all in the end, but today? Today it comes for me.


Anyway, yeah I got town/town :/ Not that it matters, for today I get to help the scum in an entirely unique and fascinating way - by becoming the instant topic of the day for them to dump votes on

I'd...rather not share why I rejected roleblocker, specifically. But I will say this: in one of my most recent games (not on this site) I rolled a boosted-jailkeeper (they also got to neighborize the people they jailsd) and honestly it wasn't a role I enjoyed much. Not only was RB a repeat of that - in a game packed with roles - it was a weaker version, and it's one that has significant downsides (I've never been very good with difficult roles, day 1 in that game I jailed our only cop thinking they were scum). So yeah, I chose against it.

Bobchillingworth, you were offered a chance to repeat last game, why wouldn't you take it?

What is so impressive about this post that makes you think it is pre-prepared? I mean...I don't get it. It's a phone post by me, composed on the spot. You can even see some of my tics there - the misspelled "jailsd" which comes up in tons of my phone posts, the lack of much formatting, the lack of any image or gif links (though admittedly, I never do gifs anyway, but this was a time when I wanted to, but couldn't because of phone), the lack of some specific capitalizations (Day 1, for example), the lack of complicated smilies and the presence of ones I forget don't show up on this forum....I could go on, but is this really a tell? Like, this just baffles me. I can link you to examples of the above, if necessary, but surely you recognize them?

I explained above my thoughts about what I meant by a crafted post.

[zakalwe]

Ichabod, when Jabbz was piling onto Q, he introduced his post like this:

Caught up for the time being. As with the other two day one games, there isn't a lot of definitive information going around yet. What does stand out to me however, is Qg.

But the thing that stands out, according to Jabbz, is Q's first post, which he had ample opportunity to comment on earlier. He ignored that whole discussion until there was a big wagon to join, and then went back to that post and characterized it like this:

This excuse sounds just absolutely terrible to me. It cites some nebulous other site forum game, claims that more roles makes a role blocker weaker, and claims "oh I'm bad, so I didn't want an important role." I don't know Qg all that well, but this seems very off for him.

If that opening post by Q really was so terrible, then it's strange that Jabbz completely ignored it earlier, even going so far as to unvote. I believe this is Q's main point against Jabbz, and probably also what he's referring to in the bolded part. In any case, it's the reason why I'm voting for Jabbz.

[Ichabod]

I'm wondering why the Q wagon got off the ground so fast compared to Novice wagon. Roleblocker really isn't that strong of a role, not even close to Doctor. Should it not be natural to vote for the more suspicious discard? Are townies this afraid of lynching a good player.. or did the Q wagon ramp up so fast because he's town?

I just don't have the guts to lynch a claimed cop. Not until he contradicts himself or something...

Lewwyn loves playing scum / SK, and I strongly believe he would took them if given the chance. He loves the mind games.
His suspicion of Ichabod is pretty bad IMO (http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid518007)
Ichabod's attack on dtay was backtracked to begin with. He included a point regarding his forum personality with comment "maybe it's just how he rolls". So your accusation of him trying to backtrack later doesn't make sense.

Sort of agree with this. It's not a crime to make bad attacks on day 1, but Lewwyn's attack on Ichabod looks a little more "malicious" than Ichabod's attack on dtay. The latter looked more like probing for tells than casting aspersions.

Or I'm thinking out loud.

Meiz the whole idea of probing for tells would mean that you would be a bit more forceful then backtracking the whole time you are probing, no? I usually get suspicious of people who ask too many questions. It's like the questions get you "involved" but then there's no need to actually do anything about it. If you think it was malicious Zak, I'd hate to hear what you'd define any other time I accuse someone of scum. I didn't think I was attacking very harshly.

That said Ichabod is definitely on my radar.

But that is not what you accused him of to begin with. I think your accusation was flawed and I find it hard to understand how you draw the conclusion of Ichabod attacking town and then later backtracking & looking for a way out.

Since we won't be hearing from Qgqq for a while, I'll vote Lewwyn

Aren't you wrong though? I'm going to quote the post so I can show you you are wrong.

The exchange between Ichabod and dtay is really interesting. (posts 49-59) I'm not going to quote the whole thing. Basically Ichabod accusing dtay of being meta-y wolf. Honestly it sounds a little bit like a wolf going in on a townie, getting rebuffed and backtracking slowly. When Ichabod asks, "What do you think about this?" It looks like he's looking for his final way out and to make his earlier throwing of suspicion seem less intent.

FoS: Ichabod

What did I say? I said he was accusing dtay of being wolfy. Look:

These "the game play like this" posts are really wolfy...

Though dtay seems to be a pretty analytical guy from what I read from him in the forum, so I get this is just how he rolls, perhaps. (I get a similar vibe from his posts in Civ reports).

Does that not look like exactly what I said?? Cast suspicion, complete with the nice ellipsis implying "YOU ARE A WOLF" with a built in backtrack get out of jail "my mistake" card.

Then what did I say? When Ichabod makes his question he's looking for a way out of the conversation while making his earlier casting of suspicion seem less like casting of suspicion. Isn't that exactly what he does here? :

It's wolfy because those posts are a good way of appearing to make content without making actual content. They talk about "general rules" and are, thus, generic, not related to any specific situation or player (only marginally). So, when doing this, you avoid things like contradicting yourself when presenting an argument (which happens when playing wolf), or stepping on someone else's toe when making a case (which can quickly turn into a revenge vote, which you don't want when playing wolf), but you also give the appearance of content.

Usually, newbie wolves that are still getting their feet wet tend to fall back to arguments like this, when making more specific ones seems dangerous/hard.

What do you think about this?

Ichabod explains the metawolfy comment, being metawolfy himself (though I didn't have as much of a problem with that because he was talking to dtay as a newbie) and then asks this question, "What do you think about this?" Which as I've said consistently in both posts now is a really crux of why I found Ichabod suspicious.

I seriously don't see what you're talking about Meiz. In fact it just looks to me like you're twisting my words.

I explained above the dtay thing and about that question. And I think my reasoning was sound. If you look at dtay's answer:

What do you think about this?

Makes sense actually, but only if not coupled with actual particular suspicions, which I think i've been doing.

I think Qqqqq in particular is coming defensive, in the sense of reaching for any argument that would justify his choice as opposed to just the ones he believes.

And novice (who my vote is currently parked on) rejected a role so good I think he has an extremely high chance of being scum, though can't comment more until he comes online.

Second tier of suspects I mentioned: Azarius kind of for Vanilla cop, though that one isn't a killer. And then Lewwyn for IC, similar to novice waiting for him to come online.

I find it scummy. He felt it like an attack and got defensive. He proceeded to act on the exact way that I said wouldn't be scummy. Which is, considering I made that question and directed to him, scummy. Seems like a contradiction, but usually villagers get more annoyed at this than anything else. Again, the problem here is that such behaviour, compared to what I've read from dtay around the forum, is actually consistent. As I've said in a lurker thread from one of our games, dtay is a true gentleman.

It's not that big of a thing, but it's useful information.

So you agree with Lewwyn's read.

You note that he discarded a role far less powerful than others have discarded.

Then you jump on the latest bandwagon to be swinging through town?

I agree with Lewwyn's read, but not his conclusion. One awkward question is far from a clear scum tell. Which he probably realized for himself and backed away from his own read.

Innocent Child is in my opinion third strongest role discarded after Doctor and Hider, and second most suspicious after Doctor. You don't have to agree with my opinion but at least respect it.

It's not a bandwagon yet but here's hoping.

Getting deja vu from last game, Jkaen is probably town again.

I was getting the same condescending tone from Jowy's posts that I think fired up Jkaen. But this is a pretty good post by Jowy and a pretty good read on Jkaen too.

---

I'll wait for Qgqq to answer my question on my above post, above the bolded part in his case against Jabbz.

EDIT @Qgqq: About my question, I'm referring to the whole paragraph that I bolded, not the sentence that you bolded yourself.

[Molach]

On phone.
I am liking contributions from silent-but-deadly-when-scum Mattimeo so far.
At this time I agree with Qgqqqq and Zakalwe on jabbz.

I'll not vote novice today with that claim, should be easy to test very soon.

[Jkaen]

I was just reviewing the Mattimeo voters (was 2nd on the list) and say Molach was still on the parked vote,but has now moved.

Rowain is interesting.

He votes for somebody ditching the FBI cop role which i don't think is that great, but if you go through the posts it seems almost every post refers to SK in some manner.

Are you immune to mafia kills or 2 shot bullet proof Rowain?

(Not saying its worth voting him even if I am right, more interested right now in getting scum)

[Jowy]

Disregard my earlier post about novice vs Qg wagons. Novice claimed earlier than I remembered, Qg wagon got going after that.