WW35: Not Another TPS Report [Game Thread]

[Fenn]

Didn't see your last post before making mine. Bob's novice focus is probably a null tell all in all, could come from a town or scum player.

[Jabbz]

And the conversation has just completely died. Are we waiting to see the results of this nights activities, or is everyone just having a better evening than I am.

[Bobchillingworth]

Nights are always quiet. Nothing to do but wait for results and perhaps post your reads if you think you're likely to die.


As evidenced by the last several posts being an extended discussion about whether I should get any special village cred going into D2 (for the record, I wouldn't give myself much were I an outside observer).

[Qgqqqqq]

I really, really wish people would edit quotes before posting them. There's no need to have 4 nested quotes in any post. I've just spent 10 minutes simply editing Jabbz's long posts so that I can read them without clogging up the thread, and it's still 2000 words.

Seriously, doing that is anti-town because it shuts down discussion - it puts that extra upfront cost to actually continuing the discussion high. And now that I've done it, I'm already very, very weary of interacting with the thread and not wanting to actually spill e-ink on it.

I'm not saying it's a tell one way or the other scum-wise (it isn't), it just makes the thread that little much worse for all concerned. Sure, do it in a quick 5 minute response to a short nested quote, but if you're doing a comprehensive reply...please cut down on the bulk.


Anyway. I definitely want to reevaluate in the light of that lynch, and even maybe read some of it again (*shudders*), but I don't want to leave Jabbz's response going unresponded to (again), so the plan was to get a response out to that tonight and then spend the first few hours of day 2 (if I make it) reviewing the thread.

I dunno if that's still going to happen. In case someone else wants to have a pass at Jabbz's posts from circa the Mattimeo-reveal, here they are:

I really, really wish people would edit quotes before posting them. There's no need to have 4 nested quotes in any post.

This looks like a good place to start for the morning. I'm glad I woke up early though, normally wouldn't be up until much closer to lynch time.

...

I was asked what some of my other reads were. I answered. I'm damned if I do damned if I don't here, because if I had stronger cases against people, with nothing to back them up, you would be on me just as much. I put a vote in for Novice when the only information we had was that he had dropped doc, and with most of us not knowing who dropped what would be shown, that was an open invitation to be read as ditching a town power role for a scum role. I, like many other people, did not give him an all clear when he claimed, just a "we will see" which was the appropriate thing to do in the situation. I voted no vote at that point, because I had class shortly, and didn't want to make a halfass claim on someone else at the time. It's worth mentioning that, had I done so at the time, you would then be bitching about me voting for someone with a weak case.

I then voted Q, when I had time to read everyone's posts, and evaluate his claim. The fact that I came on later was a product of A: not understanding how useful his role could be, B: being focused on Novice beforehand, and C: not having time for WW until later in the day. Since that point, up until now when he is claiming cop, and gets some breathing room for the same reason Novice did, I have been on him consistently. If I had changed for anyone else though, you would again be on me for swapping off the train, and using that to justify me being scum.

...

I already addressed this above. Had Qg stated he was cop earlier, I would have jumped off him earlier. Given that we already had one person claiming cop, I still don't understand why he took so long to admit it, but whatever. Yes at this point I'll be off Qg, because it's the right thing to do for the town. Whether or not I get off of him at this point however, you are going to read it as scummy.

Jabbz has made a lot of excuses in this game.

Two words: Grad School

My conclusion is that Jabbz looks bad and might be scum. I wish there was a town baseline established though.

Pretty sure I addressed everything. If you're scum you definitely won't accept any of it. If you're town, you might not either. Regardless, I had to respond

I agree with Jowy. I'll add that this:

"So. Forty plus minutes of trying to parse through this mess has left me with the opinion that I don't read nearly as much into everyone's statement as some of you guys do. I guess I'm just looking for direct contradiction, or poorly constructed logical arguments, and day one doesn't seem to present too many of those."

doesn't align very well with his over-the-top attack on Q earlier.

I had a solid basis for my arguments on Qg, primarily that he had dropped a powerful pro town role.

-TT suspicious but I'm not going to vote him

Not surprising given that I find Qg at this point to be a far bigger threat to the town than TT.

- Zak is good
- Az is suspicious but maybe he isn’t

Actually this was intended to just be more of a poke at Az for calling me out, than any real doubt about him. He is the one that told me I was "scummy as fuck" the last two games, so I'm having fun with him.

- Claiming is good but maybe it isn’t

How dare I not have come to a conclusion on this issue! No seriously though, I'm still not 100% sure on this, and there are people advocating both stances, so it's obviously not a simple, clear cut and dried issue.

- I am town

I'm glad you caught that, I was worried I was being too subtle.

-Voting Q, because he still looks scummy

So yes, Jabbz I would say that was insufficient. If you do find out more from the paperclip torture on Q, and decided he was not a good lynch today afterall, is there somebody else you would vote as second choice?

A: If what I posted here, and in my response to Jowy in my last post isn't enough for you, I'm not sure what will be. B: The paperclip torture was my proposed lynch method for Q. Since I hold the patent on it, I'm contemplating holding it in abeyance for Q in case he turns out to be lieing about being a cop. If so, I'll have to design something else for tonight's lynch. It's ok, I'm good at working under a deadline. (Translation, I'll wiki medieval torture methods and claim it's my own idea.) C: As far as a second vote, I think TT still looks tempting. Despite that however, since I know I'm town, and I need to preserve my own life so I can keep working on finding the sycophants, I pretty much have to vote Lewwyn.

Wow. Missed a lot while putting that post together. Matt's claim kind of changes things a bit. At least one of them is lying. As someone else said, Qg is taking a huge risk lying about cop, as he is under a lot of scrutiny right now. Matt claiming to be a cop is suicide if he isn't, as we are now going to lynch one of the cops, and if we lynch a legit cop, he is likely toast. Going back and rereading matt's posts, but for the moment, due to his lack of activity, Novice

I don't get why you quoted your own post on this matter rather than my (or others) criticizing it, but anyway.

I quoted my post because it made it easier for me to address it line by line. Since pretty much everything I had said in that post had been questioned, it seemed the easiest way to A: avoid missing anything, and B: having a bunch repeats of things I said.

So is it the role itself that caught your attention and, at the least, caused you to re-read (the second time)? Your post (and vote) then, is completely about the meta of the role, rather than the way I handled it?

Yes. Once people explained the role as being more powerful than I originally interpreted it, I went back and reread your stuff. When I first read your posts I simply didn't think much about them, as they seemed to be very reasonable justifications for not playing it. With the new information in mind, they fell short.

Why would I ever comment on another site unless I was able and willing to present it? Like, why would you ever assume that's a lie or tenuous - I could easily claim an IRL game instead, which would be far easier to fake.

No, the indicator of your scumminess lies in that you chose to jump on a series of easy and meta-bound lynches, and then exaggerated your response to my post.

I think my initial response to this was quite appropriate. I'm sorry that you disagree. You will also note that, despite the fact that I still liked you for a lynch, I did accept this part quite easily when you linked the site.

True. It wasn't my justification, but I can see how you might have thought that.

Fake edit: actually, that wasn't what you said in yout post at all. You said: "claims that more roles makes a role blocker weaker" That's nothing like what you've just defended. What's going on here?

I assume you mean this post.

This excuse sounds just absolutely terrible to me. It cites some nebulous other site forum game, claims that more roles makes a role blocker weaker, and claims "oh I'm bad, so I didn't want an important role." I don't know Qg all that well, but this seems very off for him.

That was me simply misreading your post. I addressed that here.

On the "weaker role" I read you as saying that the RB here is weaker than the RBesque role you had on the other site. That being your justification for not wanting it is like turning down a 1s vig because you played a MS vig before and the 1s is so much less powerful.

Making votes is absolutely about placing pressure. No questions there. To state, however, that it isn't also about getting someone lynched is ludicrous, however, and deliberately and after-the-fact cheapening a vote.

It is absurd to claim that every single vote cast is about getting someone lynched. Can you honestly tell me that you have never placed a vote simply to see how someone responds? Say yes, and I'll bet you I can go back into your past games and find you do just that. I could use the easy money, I haven't had a raise at this damn place in over a year. Further, it isn't an attempt to cheapen a vote after the fact when I stay on you, rather than move after getting the response I was looking for. Methinks you are taking this a bit too personally.

Your argument here for my lynch is basically entirely meta - you voted novice before on meta, backed off on meta and then came after me on meta. To you, the way I handled it didn't matter a whit, until after you decided that my role was more powerful than you thought (but still weaker than half the claimable roles...) and came back to have a look. Even then, the way you say it doesn't make me think you really cared for what occurred therein, it was merely the fact that I rejected the role and then failed to claim. The focus is on the excuse of rejecting, not on the (apparently terrible) way that I handled it - all pressure for claims rather than scumhunting, a continuation of the trend.

I get re-reading for tells. But this isn't anything to do with that - this is all role-based, as you said in the first bit of this post (you returned after you realised how strong it was), no mention of what I was saying. And thus, because he's been pressuring not for reads but for claims, he'll have got his victory.

And again, there's no real defense against what was argued! He's been wagoning big-time - following the big posts, not scumhunting individually but jumping on reads - but he doesn't defend against it, instead saying that he's not expecting to end up lynching, merely holding out to pressure. For what? How has my response be recieved? Or are you just blatantly pressuring for a role-claim?

Unfortunately I don't have time to analyse his other posts, but he doesn't seem to give any more reasoning on me, and continues to be dominated by meta discussion. I honestly don't recall his previous games, but this is all scummy as fuck.

I'm pretty sure I addressed the rest of this stuff elsewhere. For the moment, given what's going on with others, this is a moot point. However, you are not off the radar completely. That's cool, neither am I :P

[Jabbz]

I really, really wish people would edit quotes before posting them. There's no need to have 4 nested quotes in any post. I've just spent 10 minutes simply editing Jabbz's long posts so that I can read them without clogging up the thread, and it's still 2000 words.

Seriously, doing that is anti-town because it shuts down discussion - it puts that extra upfront cost to actually continuing the discussion high. And now that I've done it, I'm already very, very weary of interacting with the thread and not wanting to actually spill e-ink on it.

I'm not saying it's a tell one way or the other scum-wise (it isn't), it just makes the thread that little much worse for all concerned. Sure, do it in a quick 5 minute response to a short nested quote, but if you're doing a comprehensive reply...please cut down on the bulk.

Sorry about that Qg. I'm hesitant to cut too much when I quote people, because I'm worried about either losing context, or making it look like I'm trying to lose context. I'll try to a bit more aggressive with my cutting, and hopefully people won't read it as more scummy than I always appear anyway :P

[Mattimeo]

If it's nested, you're probably fairly safe in cutting out everything but the immediate post you're replying to.

Everyone's already seen everything in the stuff you cut there at least twice.

[Jowy]

Remember to send in your roles.

[zakalwe]

"Not surprising given that I find Qg at this point to be a far bigger threat to the town than TT."

What does/did this mean? Just that Q is scummier than TT, or something else?

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, that's not happening tonight. I'll try and find time to finish it off tomorrow.

In the meantime, quick reads list.

Town:

Mattimeo: all but confirmed at this point
Zakalwe: IMO has just been reading very well this whole time, probing the right people, making the right points. Besides, he just reads very towny.

Ichabod: I get quite a good feel from his posts. I feel like he's been doing a decent job of scumhunting this game. I didn't like the way he backed off Fenn, but his indecision regarding me has felt quite genuine. Strong town lean.

Rowain: idk, he just feels like town Rowain. Making the right posts, the same gambits, the same short comments, the same...feel.Yeah, this is totally gut, but still, strong lean.

Azarius and Molach also have struck me as town, though I don't know why.

Scum:

Jabbz: I've explored this enough. You get the picture.
Lewwyn: Personally, I didn't find his discard particularly revealing, provided he got a decent town role when he eventually claims - I don't think this is a reason to push him at all. However, his posts when he came on after the Matt claim didn't feel real, IMO. And his posts earlier were similarly...lackluster. Like I said, I haven't reread this yet, but I remember them feeling like they were lacking. His avoiding posting any reasoning for going after me was a bit odd, too - he's not normally the type to just follow anothers lead, and it seemed a lot like a lazy scum Lewwyn just skating along. Tbh, he might be higher than Jabbz...but Jabbz is my personal lynch

Twinkletoes: I haven't had a chance to focus on him at all, and he's largely avoided the limelight, but his early reads list felt really half-assed, avoiding committing, and I didn't like what I skimmed of him since.

Adrienler/the meta brigade: I don't remember quite who else was on this, but Adrien was a good representative. Low contribution, mostly following wagons, and pressuring/voting more based off meta/claims then scumhunting. Truthfully, it goes a bit beyond this, but this is a generalization because I'm not going through everyone. I distinctly remember Adrien saying "I'm not jumping off till you claim," which, whilst it might be a bit of misguided town, was just very dunderheaded and, honestly, suspicious through incompetence play. That stubbornness for a questionable tactic that overrode scumhunting and, whilst it did have positive results, ultimately led to a pair of outed cops. Most others in this position were doing other stuff, unlike Adrien (IIRC), so it's more scum points for taking that road then a definitive read.
Jowy is NOT a part of that, because a) he has very particular and very odd views on how to play (which I seem to clash with regardless of alignment) and b) because he actually did do a good bit of scumhunting, IIRC. (stick him in town lean, actually.)
Jkaen: Getting late, but he's just felt quite weird. So mostly gut, I suppose. His movement/posts at end of day also felt quite suspect, IMO.

Dtay: Weakest scum lean of them all, only listing because he's one I keep thinking about. I think he's left a very similar impression as Ichabod posted about at start of day - very analytical, slightly odd tone, bit too much focus on meta - but hard to tell because it does sound quite like his tone from civ, so I can't tell if it's just how he approaches things as town.


That's all the things that jump out at me.


@Zakalwe:

I don't think I've mentioned it before, but your old avatar brings back a surprising well of nostalgia from me I don't know if it was your first one, but it's the one I always remember from earlier and, honestly, the one I associate as being...you know, you. It brings back so many good memories

[zakalwe]

Yeah, the avatar brings back "the good old times" for me, too.

What about Meiz?