Mardoc and Friends plot and plan [spoilers, whole tournament]

[Mardoc]

So, the rules we ended up with mean that we ought to plan out the entire campaign before starting any duel. In particular, the 'may use a civ only once' and the variable mapscripts.

HK's already offered to dedlurk, and if there's anyone else out there looking for a show, here's the happening place! I'm planning to report all my games, assuming time allows. Need to do that anyway to aid my thinking process as I play, and getting advice from dedlurkers is a nice bonus.

My duels that count:
Mardoc | Old Lion
Mardoc | Bob
Mardoc | Northstar

Tasunke | Mardoc
Greywolf | Mardoc
Q | Mardoc

I drew a pretty easy slate, actually. I'm only worried about Bob and Q out of this list, and I think I might be able to beat them, given careful play - at the least, they're an 'any given Sunday' opponent.

I don't know anything about Old Lion, but if he's not a smurf - well, newbs tend to make the same mistakes in MP FFH, that I can take advantage of. And I think I can beat the others; assuming, of course, that the duel/zero-sum nature doesn't make others do better than usual. Tasunke, in particular, seems a risk to be scarier in duel than FFA. I don't intend to handicap myself, at least not much...but it'd be good to save a powerhouse for tiebreaking. I want to keep the games interesting - but I also would like to win, or at least medal (TBS scares me, I admit).

'Bonus' games that might happen - should take these seriously as well. Why? Because I wouldn't be surprised to see TBS go 6-0, and it's quite possible that someone else will as well. Plus, well, it's more fun that way And honestly, although winning would be nice, the real reason to participate is to enjoy myself.
Mardoc | Black Sword
Mardoc | Kragroth
Mardoc | Dreylin
Black Sword | Mardoc
Auroarcher | Mardoc

The only really non-negotiable thing is that I really really want to play an elf against Northstar, due to his complaints about balance in EitB (he claims the elves have been nerfed!). Ideally this is where I'd use Volanna and keep my foot on his throat all game long. The hope to show him the error of his thinking was my main reason to sign up in the first place!

Other than that, I don't have any favorites. Gotta figure out the right tradeoff between making the games interesting, and winning. Against Bob/Q I intend to take some sort of typical favorite, but the others might need me to handicap myself

Also, as player one in the first set, I get to propose mapscripts and settings. Haven't thought much about this, need to research the options. Although Mirror means there won't be too much room for advantage - and against the newbs I'd feel bad doing something other than normal, anyway.

Should try to get at least one game moving soon. Staggering the games as Dreylin's planning is also probably a good idea.

[Mardoc]

PMing with Old Lion:

Hello,

I guess I'm waitig for your first map proposal.

you can mail me stuff at :
[redacted]

OldLion

Yep, I know. I'm still catching up but I'll propose something tonight or tomorrow. Probably going to be almost all Kragroth's suggested default settings.

How do you feel about Unique Features? I'd like to have them on, myself, but not if you object.

My e-mail is [also redacted]

Frankly, I'm totally rusted with that game, so I have absolutely no preference about unique feature. go for them.
I'll probably acept any settings you suggest, I have no idea about their impacts anyway. (except water + Lanum btw)

So...is he bluffing? Or should I consider this a good game for someone less powerful, like Bannor or Khazad?

[HidingKneel]

Dedlurker checking in.

I haven't followed the setup of this game closely. Do I have the following details right?

(1) Maps will be randomly generated, mirrored, and unedited.
(2) You can't choose the same civ more than once.

First general thoughts: the 1v1 format makes the game dramatically different from most of the PBEMs here. I'm not sure if rushing the opponent is mandatory, but having an early defense against rushes certainly is. Probably going straight for the kill is the way to go.

The Aggressive trait is much more valuable than usual.

If the map is unedited, access to strategic resources is not guaranteed. If there's no Bronze, rushes are more viable because you can't defend with Bronze warriors. Also, being able to build mounted units without Horses could make a very big difference (advantage: Hippus, Kuriotates. Technically also Svartalfar, since Nyxkin don't require horses, but very unlikely that the game will last that long or that you would head in that direction even if it did).

Also, you might expect less access to happy resources than usual. Which makes the Charismatic trait and/or Enchantment mana more valuable than usual.

My thoughts on the top-tier civs for this, in order:

1) Hippus. Tasunke would be better than Rhoanna for this. Mounted units without horses, good war traits, and an awesome worldspell. Warcry is basically "win one war for free". If there's only going to be one war, you've won the game.

2) Svartalfar (assuming Volanna is allowed; if not, bump them down a notch). Agree with your strategy: build a bunch of scouts and choke. Like my early XXIII game against Amelia, only more so (because you don't have to worry about building an economy that will win the game afterwards).

3) Kuriotates: lightning start, beeline HBR, then choke/pillage/kill with Centaurs. Worldspell isn't bad in this context (lots of free cultural defense, lets you see a rush coming well in advance).

4) Doviello. I'd pick Charadon. This is the one situation where you can actually play the Doviello as intended and hope to win. It's risky: if Lucian gets eaten by a spider, you're not in a good place.

5) Illians, assuming that Stasis is allowed. Disabling opponents for seven turns while you get a golden age? That should put you in such a good position, the only way you could lose would be to forget to build an army or something. Enchantment mana + Charismatic gives you a starting happy cap of 7. Priests of Winter don't come super-early, but if you don't get overwhelmed before reaching them you should be able to win with them. Main drawback of Auric is the Agnostic trait, but the game shouldn't last long enough for it religions to matter.

6) Calabim (Decius, probably). Worldspell gives you an early edge. Game will surely be over before Vampires, but maybe not before Moroi and Governor's mansions. Always a strong civ, and the strength arrives nice and early.

Thoughts on other civs:

Bannor sound awful for this. Game will be over long before you unlock Crusade, and what else have they got?

Elohim: can see a lot of use for the worldspell, but not much else going for them.

Malakim: Not bad if you get a flavor start. Otherwise meh.

Luchuirp: Worldspell gives a big early boost, which is what we need here. Especially a boost to production. Trouble is, I don't see where to head with them militarily.

Amurites: Sound awful to me; these games will be over long before firebows or sorcery.

Grigori: Seems like a pretty solid choice. Heroes are good for rushing. Like with the Illians, the game will be over before Agnostic hurts you.

Lanun: Can get your economy off to a rocket start, and pirate coves can't be pillaged unless the opponent is also a sea power. Dangerous, though, on a random map: if you end up landlocked, you've got basically nothing going for you.

Khazad: Not too bad. The +20% defense could actually be useful. Double move on hills + fast dwarven workers lets you get up to faster than usual. You don't have the tools to make an early rush yourself, but you have the tools to repel one (and could potentially put a nasty choke on an opponent who settles in a hilly area) long enough to tech to Trebuchets, which are awesome.
Not being able to build mages is irrelevant since the game won't last that long. I'd take Kandros over Arturus for the Aggressive trait.

Ljosalfar: pretty bad, unless the mapscript is Arboreal or something. Lategame powerhouse, but there won't be a lategame here.
Lazy elven workers make the early game painful. You have a great anti-rush worldspell but you'll get rushed before you unlock it. Having an early hero is great, but he doesn't come early enough to use him for offense.

Sidar: Their tricks won't really shine here, I think. Don't want to wane a unit that could be on the front lines, and Sever Soul will come after the game is decided.

Balseraphs: Game won't last long enough to unlock their cool toys. Worldspell is awesome in most contexts, but somewhat less valuable here (you'll want to get an early edge, and GAs aren't as valuable early as they are late). Not bad, but not great.

Clan: Worldspell could be useful depending on settings, as could peace with the barbs. If you don't get rushed early, Warrens ought to give you a military edge. Either leader sounds good.

Sheaim: Os-Gabella is terrible and the game won't last long enough for Tebryn to shine. Averax might be alright.

So...is he bluffing? Or should I consider this a good game for someone less powerful, like Bannor or Khazad?

I'd guess he's on the level. But there are plenty of strong picks to go around... no need to dredge the Bannor from the bottom of the barrel.

[Mardoc]

Dedlurker checking in.

Wow, you've spent more time thinking this through carefully than I have. Thanks!

I haven't followed the setup of this game closely. Do I have the following details right?

(1) Maps will be randomly generated, mirrored, and unedited.
(2) You can't choose the same civ more than once.

Yes...but we're allowed to repeat for the final game, if we make it that far. Still, you're right that we need six civs.

First general thoughts: the 1v1 format makes the game dramatically different from most of the PBEMs here. I'm not sure if rushing the opponent is mandatory, but having an early defense against rushes certainly is. Probably going straight for the kill is the way to go.

Yes, agreed. May not actually need a kill, but any time we can come out ahead on a hammer exchange we're in good shape.

The Aggressive trait is much more valuable than usual.

Agreed, more for the easy access to Shock/Cover/etc than for the +20% itself. Although that's nothing to scoff at.

If the map is unedited, access to strategic resources is not guaranteed. If there's no Bronze, rushes are more viable because you can't defend with Bronze warriors. Also, being able to build mounted units without Horses could make a very big difference (advantage: Hippus, Kuriotates. Technically also Svartalfar, since Nyxkin don't require horses, but very unlikely that the game will last that long or that you would head in that direction even if it did).

Ooh, I didn't consider this angle. Also favors the Clan, then.

1) Hippus
2) Svartalfar
3) Kuriotates:
4) Doviello.
6) Calabim (Decius, probably).

Generally agreed. I'm tempted to slide Clan in there, but I admit they need a big map to really work out.

Also, I need to play with map scripts. A map that gives water reliably would be awesome for Falamar (er, assuming he hasn't been nerfed in v10 or v11)

5) Illians, assuming that Stasis is allowed. Disabling opponents for seven turns while you get a golden age? That should put you in such a good position, the only way you could lose would be to forget to build an army or something

But yeah, the evidence does support that interpretation. Pretty sure I can remember the army.

So, what does that mean for picks? I have Svart penciled in for Northstar, and should choose two strong ones and a backup for Q/Bob. Tentatively thinking Kurios/Hippus/Illians for that. I know Doviello should be strong, but I just can't get excited about them.

Thoughts on other civs:
Bannor sound awful for this.
Elohim: not much else
Malakim: Not bad if you get a flavor start. Otherwise meh.
Luchuirp: Worldspell gives a big early boost, which is what we need here. Especially a boost to production. Trouble is, I don't see where to head with them militarily.
Amurites: Sound awful to me;
Grigori: Seems like a pretty solid choice. Heroes are good for rushing. Like with the Illians, the game will be over before Agnostic hurts you.
Lanun: . Dangerous, though, on a random map
Khazad: Not too bad.
Ljosalfar: pretty bad, unless the mapscript is Arboreal
Sidar: Their tricks won't really shine here, I think.
Balseraphs: Game won't last long enough to unlock their cool toys.
Clan: Worldspell could be useful depending on settings, as could peace with the barbs. If you don't get rushed early, Warrens ought to give you a military edge. Either leader sounds good.
Sheaim: Os-Gabella is terrible and the game won't last long enough for Tebryn to shine. Averax might be alright.
I'd guess he's on the level. But there are plenty of strong picks to go around... no need to dredge the Bannor from the bottom of the barrel.

Well...the main question is really how much do I want to handicap myself against the other players.

Old Lion: Don't know him. Apparently French, so I might be judging him based on his second language. Rusty? Kinda want to play something easy-going, not be a shark. I feel like something along the lines of Malakim, Lanun, or Elohim would be appropriate.
Tasunke: Ok, I have no real need to hold back against him. He's a lot better than he used to be, and I have no fear for his ego, either. Maybe Calabim here?
Greywolf: Kinda gone under the radar. I guess he's doing well, losing to Ellimist is nothing to be embarrassed about. Won't have to think about him for a while, but someone strong is probably a good idea anyway. Maybe Luchiurp, planning on chariots?

[HidingKneel]

Old Lion: Don't know him. Apparently French, so I might be judging him based on his second language. Rusty? Kinda want to play something easy-going, not be a shark. I feel like something along the lines of Malakim, Lanun, or Elohim would be appropriate.

If your thinking is "I want this to be fun for him even if he isn't very good" and also "he might be a lot better than I expect", how about choosing Auric here? Given that Stasis comes with a GA, it's not optimal to use it right away... so you'll have time to study demographics and gauge how good an opponent he is. That gives you the option of playing softball by just not using it at all. Also,
Priests of Winter aren't super-early in any case, so using them to win won't make it seem like the game was over before it began. (Unlike a Lucian rush, or an early Warcry rush, or a Svartalfar scout choke.)

[Mardoc]

Yes, that's basically the concern. I don't want to ruin his fun. But both stomping him and underestimating him would hurt his fun, and I don't really know which is more likely at the moment. So I like your solution, it should let me adjust after getting more data. Which means for a map proposal, we'll want something standardish, low water, and otherwise not worry about it.

That does mean we need a new backup for Q/Bob, in the event they steal one of our favorite civs out from under us.
PBEM XXXIX spoilers

Well...maybe play as Ljo against Northstar? Normally I'd think we don't have time to get them up and running, but fast expansion does not seem to be his priority. That leaves Volanna for Q/Bob...

[HidingKneel]

In this setting, Ljosalfar seem like a pretty underpowered pick. If you were to choose them and score a win against Northstar, it'd probably be more about you being a skilled player than any of the EitB changes. Which might be sportsmanlike... But Northstar did seem *really* sure of himself, so I wouldn't feel bad about serving him up a definitive refutation of his arguments . I say, give him Volanna.

What order are these matches happening in, anyway? If Tasunke comes after Q, then Calabim could replace Auric as your backup pick. (With a backup second-tier civ in mind for Tasunke... I'd go with Khazad, Luchuirp, or Grigori).

[Mardoc]

In this setting, Ljosalfar seem like a pretty underpowered pick. If you were to choose them and score a win against Northstar, it'd probably be more about you being a skilled player than any of the EitB changes. Which might be sportsmanlike... But Northstar did seem *really* sure of himself, so I wouldn't feel bad about serving him up a definitive refutation of his arguments . I say, give him Volanna.

What order are these matches happening in, anyway? If Tasunke comes after Q, then Calabim could replace Auric as your backup pick. (With a backup second-tier civ in mind for Tasunke... I'd go with Khazad, Luchuirp, or Grigori).

Group 1:
Mardoc | Old Lion
Mardoc | Bob
Mardoc | Northstar

Group2:
Tasunke | Mardoc
Greywolf | Mardoc
Q | Mardoc

It should be pretty straightforward to make this work, though, since theoretically the first three are simultaneous and the second three are simultaneous but later. It looks like hardly anyone is actually up for playing all their games simultaneously, but with overlap it should still be doable. I don't really want to do three simultaneously myself, but...maybe with Northstar I suggest 'start now, but for the first two months, no time pressure, only play if you've got all your other games under control'. That would hopefully let us get through the worker tech phase, at least.

Ok! So then all that remains is to play with mapscripts and start up a game or three. Sadly, my evenings have been pretty consistently busy, so I haven't found time to play with scripts yet.

[Mardoc]

Gave up on the theory of picking out mapscripts carefully. Sent this proposal to all three (well, in deference to Northstar's opinions, not AW against him):

Mirrorland
Duel Size
Thaw
Quick
Standard Resources
Lakes
Scattered Improvements: None
No BFC improvements
Always War
No Tribal Villages
Wildlands
No Orthus
No Acheron
All Unique Improvements.

Looks fairly lush, but still random enough to support the civs in mind. And not enough water for Lanun to be happy.

[Mardoc]

Mixed responses .

Old Lion is happy, taking Cardith, so I may need to pay closer attention than I thought. Still going to go Auric; hopefully I don't regret it. Started, made a new thread, haven't finished T0 yet. I'm pretty sure I know where to found, but your input would be appreciated, of course.

Bob:

Sounds good to me, I don't mind delaying a bit if you want to handle fewer duels at once, or we can jump into it now.

Oh I guess I need a leader too, heh. Uh... Charadon.

I'm happy to trot out Tasunke here, then. Proposed we start this weekend and backburner it.

And Northstar...several objections, including one that's based on a wrong assumption . No, All Unique is not unbalanced on a mirror map, we get two Yggs &tc. Might be a little while before we're both on the same page. Still planning Volanna.