WW 36 - Horrors in Kingsport [Game Thread]

[zakalwe]

I just don't get why anyone thinks that blatant error of memory is more likely for a scum than a villager.

This may be worth clarifying; mixing up dtay with someone else is not suspicious in itself. But when combined with dtay being one of two town reads that he wanted to share, and the description of dtay's play being somewhat inaccurate (at least not "spot on", in my mind), it is suspicious. Because it increases the probability that said town read is just pulled out of the air.

Since I have a keyboard and all, let's elaborate with an example. Let's say I thought AdrienIer was really Azarius. For some strategic or tactical reason I then figure that I want to read AdrienIer as town. What I do is that I think back to how Azarius usually plays as town, and then throw out something nondescript like "yeah, this is the AdrienIer I know, he always likes to say 'that makes sense' and never gets agitated". Problem is, I'm actually describing how Azarius usually plays, because of my mixup.

This is why it would be relevant and potentially useful if Saul could figure out who he really thought dtay was.

[AdrienIer]

More explicitly I found the coincidence funny, and my sleepy mind thought that the possibility of getting votes because of that was actually a good thing, and my not-as-sleepy mind agrees.

Why did you think it was a good thing?

I said so pretty early, getting out of the joke vote phase is what matters most. So when I realized right before clicking enter that my message might not be received too well I decided to send it anyway. It was too minor to get me killed (it only lasted a few posts) but it made people talk. The more things people talk about the more we can try to analyze them. In this case it wasn't really successful : even if a few people overreacted and Fenn is now on my watchlist it had no incidence on the final votes.
I'm not saying this was the main reason I sent it, but that's why I thought it wasn't bad to get early votes because of it.

BTW no one seems to note that we didn't kill a goon. In a low-role game I expect 3 or 4 non-vanilla town max and at least a goon or two, getting a kind of tracker off the wolf team is pretty good.

[zakalwe]

No you look scummy to me but apparently I'm the only one, if I had a strong feeling on anyone else I'd be off you already. The case on Saul stinks of mislynch, I'm seriously considering Matt if only because of too much lurking.

I rub my phone against my sleeve at least 5 times per WW day, thumbprints are not a valid excuse for anything.

I disagree with the "stinks of mislynch" part, but if Saul is innocent then big town points for AdrienIer here. Considering the tally he was basically painting himself into a corner here if he's scum with Mattimeo.

"Do you vote for someone only to make them post, and then not actually examine what they posted?" - kind of yes, you can't let people lurk. Though I notably just like... think people's examinations of it are bad. Especially the identity confusion arg.

Yeah , but, you're defending him on the basis then of not examining it yourself at all. Basically you're telling us that you don't even care what people write because that's not your goal.

I can't tell if this is scum or just misguided villager. Either way its bad for village IMO.

I like the whole sub-thread where Lewwyn is poking dtay, culminating in this. Regardless of dtay's alignment, this looks like honest digging. And while Lewwyn supported my arguments against Saul, he also added his own, about Saul's defensive reaction. I agree with those points, and as noted I also felt like Saul was playing up the whole "ZOMG you're trying to mislynch me" angle later on. So yeah, Lewwyn, you are looking better when I'm actually reading your posts. So far, I haven't come across any "trademark scum-Lewwyn" posts like last game, either.

Thanks for the elaboration, AdrienIer. Mattimeo's role doesn't look all that powerful to me, at least not on team scum. It's a pretty convoluted and non-standard role, though. I was a little surprised by that.

[Gazglum]

I do think that's about the third time I've seen Mattimeo flip as a scum watcher or similar. It suits his nature perhaps.

I'm going down to Brighton this weekend and will have low activity until Sunday afternoon. I'll be able to take part more actively before deadline though. I haven't had time to re-read Day 1 but off the top of my head I feel a lot better about Sunrise, I have town leans on Rowain and Dtay. Probably Adrien too. Most others I am neutral of. Given the numbers in the run on Zak, there were obviously a lot of town involved as well, so I don't think he's been scummy but it doesn't clear him either.

As someone else noted, Saul not placing a survival vote on Mattimeo is interesting.

Lewwyn looks somewhat bad as others have said, but if he genuinely thought Matt was town I guess voting for the other bandwagon makes sense. I think Lewwyn also said he thought Dtay looked bad, which I disagree with.

I don't know about the rest of the crowd without a re-read.

As for Brick's suspicions of me, I stand by what I said and I don't think I've contradicted myself. Its true that Mattimeo doesn't respond to pressure votes, so when trying to get Sunrise and Mattimeo to post more, I preferred to vote Sunrise. When it came to an actual lynch vote I preferred Mattimeo. Add I asked lots of questions because I wanted to get more information out of the day, and around the 36 hour mark of the day there was basically no activity in the thread.

[Rowain]

After rereading the last 5 hours before lynch.

After Sauls post 4 people jumped on zak 1 was scum (Matt) the other 3 have a chance to contain another scum IMO. From those 3 (BRick, Qg, Fenn) I currently like BRick best.

He only joined Matt when it looked like he would hang anyway at a time Matt had 8 votes already while the next best had 2. He left the waggon when a chance appeared and rejoined it when it became clear again that Matt would swing. Additional he tried several times to persuade me to switch my vote and to prevent a Matt-lynch. And yes this are actions scum BRick might do and in a way has done before.


From those that stayed on Matt I like Jabbz the least.
Other possible scummies on Matt: novice (bussing a fellow scum while saving zak is standard novice play . Additional I'm still not happy with his "vote Qg for attacking Adrien" - join Qg on Adrien lateron - dance

Townleans: Gaz and Adrien those 2 got the waggon rolling. Gaspar I'm not sure off. He did push it to 6:4 but he did it reluctantly and with an excuse ready to leave
sunrise089: Not for his votes-fight with Mattimeo (that is scum 101) but for me his posts look like a townie trying to find scum.

to summarize: BRick, Jabbz are my topsuspects Qg, Fenn, novice follow-ups.

[zakalwe]

So why Fenn and not Mattimeo?

I ask because this is zak in the first part of the day, before my bandwagon started

I'd be willing to join the wagon on Q, but for now I'm staying on Mattimeo.

"unfair to the people who are known for being good wolf players" is irrelevant. Why would we care if a strategy is fair?

Why not read the spoiler thread, then?

Also, if you want to play more games, having a policy of "always vote for the best wolf players," also known as "always vote for the same people," is not likely to encourage them to play more games with you.

dtay

I don't see the link between the first two paragraphs and the actual vote. Is it a policy vote, or what? Fill me in, please.

You haven't pushed him since my bandwagon and now you're voting with me and ignoring the Mattimeo wagon?

And just today you wrote

I honestly don't know who else to lynch, Saul. Maybe return to Brick or Q. Gaspar would be a cliché but possible. (He is more townish than usual though.) No strong opinion on Fenn.

Why forget Mattimeo when he hasn't said anything since?

I'm back to

zakalwe

I guess the crux of this accusation is "Why forget Mattimeo when he hasn't said anything since?"

to which part of the answer is that he had said something since. He did answer my question in his "I dare you to lynch me" post. For me that post moved him out of "scum suspect" territory and into mostly neutral "lurker" territory.

Also, when I was listing Brick, Q, and Gaspar I was doing as you requested and humoring you by quickly brainstorming other lynch candidates. So in a sense I did actually forget about Mattimeo, and probably would have mentioned him if I was being more systematic and looking at a list of players while making the post. I was trying to think of people who might be sitting back contentedly while I was mislynching you, and Mattimeo didn't really fit that profile. At that point, he was just an agenda-free lurker, in my mind. Voting for him would be like saying "Ok, I give up, let's just lynch a lurker". I included my null read on Fenn because he was your stated top suspect, other than me.

[zakalwe]

Tomorrow I will try to not focus so much on Saul because I've been doing enough of that for the time being. Gotta give him some time to catch scum before we mislynch him at the end, right?

After the reread, I agree with Rowain that Sunrise's interactions with Mattimeo (and vice versa) are scum 101. Not sure I agree that his content is so redeeming. So maybe I'll retract some of my town points. Lynching him may still be an overreaction, though. Two scum lurkers bussing each other from the start of day 1? Doesn't really sound like a winning strategy, but who knows. I tried to lynch the "busser" on day 2 of the last game and it didn't work out so great.

Q looks bad not so much for his misconstructed case against me, but for coming in very late and immediately concluding that the Mattimeo wagon must be bogus. If you're convinced that the town is heading off a cliff and in a rush to make a case for an alternative, factual errors might creep in. But where did that conviction come from? He wasn't aware of the deadline and missed his chance to influence the day 1 lynch - sure, that sucks - but why scramble to save Mattimeo? Smells a bit like scum thinking he can get away with it because "a townie would never do that".

At the other end of the scale, I think Jabbz was suspiciously quick to slap his vote down for Mattimeo when he returned. He also kept dropping the term "policy lynch" in a way that subtly undermined his own wagon. Maybe his "Zakalwe I'm totally down with lynching" post was there to give himself the option, but then he didn't quite dare to pull the trigger (after discussing with fellow scum, perhaps) and went for the maximum amount of towncred instead by attacking the late voters. Either way, it looks like a bit of a set-up when you first encourage people to vote for me, and then turn around and attack the players who took your bait.

I feel kind of sorry for Gaspar, who is being left out of the discussion. Strangely I still don't feel the urge to lynch him; not quite sure what to make of that.

[zakalwe]

I also think we have given Brick enough low-pressure time to hunt freely and enjoy the game, now. I have no qualms about turning the thumbscrews at this point.

[Gaspar]

Very good D1 outcome, not only catching scum (ideal) but also nailing one without a smoking gun but for a bit of scumminess crossed with lurking (also good because it hopefully discourages lurkers in this and future games.)

I feel good enough that I saw scum in the Matt/Sunrise interaction even if I didn't have the right one the whole time. Not convinced sunrise is town, could definitely be an interscum spat gone wrong but I think he deserves a day or two of respite for the good deed combined with all his scumminess being interaction with actual scum.

I don't think the lynch itself changed my read on anyone all that much, generally speaking I think town get cold feet a lot at end of D1 and that usually generates a lot of noise but I'll have to re-read the actual posts and see what I get from that.

[BRickAstley]

As for Brick's suspicions of me, I stand by what I said and I don't think I've contradicted myself. Its true that Mattimeo doesn't respond to pressure votes, so when trying to get Sunrise and Mattimeo to post more, I preferred to vote Sunrise. When it came to an actual lynch vote I preferred Mattimeo. Add I asked lots of questions because I wanted to get more information out of the day, and around the 36 hour mark of the day there was basically no activity in the thread.

Okay yeah, that sounds reasonable. After I did that post dump and thought about it a little bit more the scum feeling I had on you has diminished. It was more a feeling I had had on a quick re-read anyways.

[...] I currently like BRick best.

He only joined Matt when it looked like he would hang anyway at a time Matt had 8 votes already while the next best had 2. He left the wagon when a chance appeared and rejoined it when it became clear again that Matt would swing.

Okay, so here's how the end of the day went for me: After being busy and gone for 24 hours, I got back close to deadline. I spent time answering questions (from you too), and trying to figure out my scum reads. After I got to a point where I felt caught up, I felt that Mattimeo would be a passable lynch option, but I didn't feel confident, mainly because I felt that though his post numbers were bad, his post content was something I could see coming from town as well. I voted for him because I still had my vote on Gaspar from long ago, and though I didn't like the Mattimeo lynch I didn't see any other viable possible alternative.

I still didn't like it much, and after Saul kept pestering for a zakalwe vote, I decided to go ahead and do so. I didn't think my vote would have any realistic chance of changing the outcome, but I did feel like zak was a possible scum, and I wanted to see if I would have anyone following me. SO after a ton of people did I kinda freaked out, and made sure I'd be able to switch back before deadline, cause that quick vote accumulation was pretty telling that something fishy was going on.

Additional he tried several times to persuade me to switch my vote and to prevent a Matt-lynch. And yes this are actions scum BRick might do and in a way has done before.

Bullcrap. I never was trying to force you to switch your vote, except maybe in your head. I was explaining why I didn't feel his content was necessarily wolf-worthy to you. And I even agreed with you that the second point of his low post numbers was a valid reason to lynch him! And if explaining why I feel that someone's posts are scummy or not scummy, and not feeling confident about lynching someone for mainly meta reasons (for me at least), is going to get me in trouble every time, then I might as well stop playing.

I also think we have given Brick enough low-pressure time to hunt freely and enjoy the game, now. I have no qualms about turning the thumbscrews at this point.

ummmmm....

Apart from that, I like your post.

I like this post but I'm in the same boat of having no time to properly assess new candidates.

So you've said specifically twice that you like my posts, which I found as a bit odd at the time, and now you're saying I need the thumbscrews turned on me? And also:

I guess I'm more worried about jumping the gun and mislynching him than I am about letting him slip away as scum. If he is scum, he is off to a pretty bad start. But if he's town, he might find it hard to get that across if we just keep him on the defensive. But I don't mean to be a killjoy or anything. If you really think he is scum you should obviously keep at it.

That doesn't seem like you advocating low-pressure time either.

So I guess I'm a bit confused what exactly you even mean you're wanting from me then? Since you say you like my post about who I find suspicious and why, and then turn back around on me again. Is trying to find scum not enough for you?