WW 36 - Horrors in Kingsport [Game Thread]

[sunrise089]

Fenn was right though, checking Commodore's first post - alignment and roles are given out separately.

All I see is "-Alignment and roles are separated, so scum might have a more village role and vice versa."

Fenn said "Roles and alignment are separately randomized," emphasis mine.

I think the point about a "towny" role being able to be on anyone is true regardless, so I'm not quibbling on that. My reading of Fenn's post though was that scum could have anyone from all to no power roles, which felt unlikely.

[Qgqqqqq]

I would've voted novice at the end. Stupid me, trying to read the rest of the thread :/

I feel like there are more roles than I was expecting...

[Qgqqqqq]

Q doesn't read that scummy to me either, yes, yes, superwolf, etc., but I don't think there is enough of a case there. Because of that I also don't like Novice so much today. I might vote Novice over Jabbz or Q.

What changed to make you think this, Gazlgum?

[Rowain]

GG Fenn


Lewwyn why did you switch onto Fenn after his claim?

[Qgqqqqq]

Sorry, I should've waited to catch up.

[quote]Quincy Gordon Quell Quimby Quiz Quakemont [/quote ]

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah, it is Knower of Own Boots. And I do see if anyone has visited this night or the previous. I felt like there was a difference to Matt's role, but doesn't seem to be.

[Lewwyn]

Lewwyn why did you switch onto Fenn after his claim?

He claimed right at the end and I didn't believe town would claim in the last five minutes after being on the block the entire day.

[novice]

I see I'm being criticized for tunneling. Well, I think Q was the best lynch, and I think I argued the case well. I think objectively he should have been lynched, but predictably, Q wasn't lynched because people "liked his posts". This is what scum Q does so well. So I was not prepared to offer alternatives today.

[dtay]

Response:

I can’t decide whether Jabbz recent posts are belligerent town or successful wolf ploy. Because basically every time he claims to be misrepresented he is rather bluntly wrong. It almost seems to poorly done to be a wolf, so I lean former, that he’s just very very belligerent town.

So to start unraveling, Jabbz says in response to me

More posts doesn't mean more contribution. Further, when a decent portion of that "contribution" was based on BS, it really doesn't count as contribution. Then most of the posts following that for a while were self defense posts which are practically the antithesis of contribution.

Not sure who this was supposed to be referring to, but up until the referred post you had posted maybe 6 lines of text total, over half of which was jokes, joke votes, joke reads on joke posts, etc. I don’t independently hold joking against anyone, I think that’s silly (similar to how I thought the people going after Adrien for a joke are silly), but it doesn’t count as content. At moment of post Saul had CERTAINLY contributed more than you in his 1 major read post + defenses of himself, b/c you were pretty much the lowest contributor besides the pure lurkers.

Low contribution at that point in time isn’t really independently scummy and you added a lot after that, but it makes you claiming someone else’s “low contribution” means they’re scummy amusing to me.

He says

No fucking humor, this is serious goddamn business folks.

See above. My point by mentioning your joke posts wasn’t to say joke posts = scummy, just that they’re null tells and your actual contributions up until the point of your supposedly “fleshed out case” was pretty much nothing.


Important part:

You really like to leave things out as you do your "big reads."

The mistaking of your identity was big, when it included a read of your supposedly aggressive behavior being normal for you based on the past games. So yes, dtay, it was a big deal.

I voted for Saul because his initial mistake, your defense, and his defense, all smelled scummy. You are leaving that part out in order to try to paint a picture that doesn't exist.

This is I think the central point where Jabbz is being delusional and why this feels like two ships passing in the night. I am leaving absolutely nothing out in this picture, you actually just didn’t explain ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL in why you were voting for Saul until way after the fact (and the two reasons you do have I think are poor, but separate question. I legitimately think you might be confusing yourself and thinking you typed out more of your internal thought process than you did, because your initial case had no mention of defensiveness. You had a post just noting the slip up. Then you asked gaz the question. Then you had a separate post saying you felt Saul as scummy, no explanation given. Then you voted.

At no point in there was this case bloody fleshed out, or explained. There’s not some magic “here is my thought process” post that I’m skipping over. You get to that later and I noted that later when it occurred, but to claim I’m painting a false picture at this point in time is just incorrect.

Your next post after these 4 is the one stating your case is fleshed out, when it wasn’t, and that post doesn’t help at all.

Like, the post you claimed “added” information was:

Saul's play is the only stuff today that actually stands out as scummy. Everything else is kind of wishy washy, maybe scum, maybe joke, etc. This stuff though... It looks like someone trying to float on by without attracting much attention.

Which adds literally 0 information.

If you don’t believe my general description, here’s a specific breakdown of the posts you had from first mention of Saul up until your vote

The initial post

I thought Dtay was new to WW. Is this perhaps a wolf covering for another wolf, without actually making sure he has played with him before?

The post that adds nothing

Saul's play is the only stuff today that actually stands out as scummy. Everything else is kind of wishy washy, maybe scum, maybe joke, etc. This stuff though... It looks like someone trying to float on by without attracting much attention.

Gaz question post

Just out of curiousity Gaz, when he is acting scummy, why did you feel it necessary to throw him a lifeline?

Reference to a joke post

That was actually more of a joke post tongue AdrienIer seems a little bit more complex than something that simple. I don't give him any town cred for the statement, but it doesn't make me think scum either.

And finally the actual vote

Isn't that one of the steps on the flowchart? tongue

In all seriousness though, Doctor Saul you do look rather suspicious atm.

So after that, an hour later you get annoyed at me for me saying your case was pretty insubstantial, when it is, and you don’t actually add anything. I’ve quoted this post many times, but spoiler below just to be clear:

Jabbz is the one most suspicious in this, rather quickly (but halfheartedly) finding what I think is a pretty bad argument persuasive.

Novice's vote makes sense to me. Agree with you that I would like to hear Jabbz expand on his reasoning behind his vote.

I think it's pretty obvious if you don't just look at the post where I voted, but what led to the entire conversation.

I thought Dtay was new to WW. Is this perhaps a wolf covering for another wolf, without actually making sure he has played with him before?

A slip of the magnitude that Saul made is substantial. He then doubles down on it as you will note below.

I remember playing with dtay before, and he was aggressive then. and I've been away a while from ww so he's certainly not new to rb or ww

On top of that, I added this.

Saul's play is the only stuff today that actually stands out as scummy. Everything else is kind of wishy washy, maybe scum, maybe joke, etc. This stuff though... It looks like someone trying to float on by without attracting much attention.

So yeah. It's a fairly fleshed out case, at least day one wise. The way Dtay is defending Saul, and the way he jumped off as soon as the train got momentum makes him look pretty scummy too.

About half an hour later you post again, just restate mixup = big deal.

Claiming to have played with someone, and giving them a pass based on that information, is pretty big. But hey dtay, you can read into it as you wish, or not as you wish that's ok. Just understand you are now outside my COT. I'm off to meet with some of my cohort before class starts. Back around 9:30 pst.

This is why I’m confused at you thinking I’m mischaracterizing you. You seem to have imagined yourself saying more about why you were doing what you were doing than you had, not until after I got on your case about lack of actual content to the case did you really explain it beyond single sentence “mixup = bad” statements, an argument that was being discussed in far greater depth than you seemed willing to engage with (ex: zak’s explanation of the same). You kept asserting you had explained yourself instead of well, actually explaining yourself.

8 hours or so later I think the first clear explanation of how your thought process had been working comes out

I'd repost it again, but I'm fairly certain you will ignore it again. I made an observation. You and he both jumped as if I'd stuck a flaming brand down your britches. You then went into hyper defensive mode. That made me change my vote from a 100% joke vote on Zak, to a 50% serious vote on Saul. Now its 100%, and you're next.

Which I disagree with but didn’t trigger the “what this makes no sense” scum-dar like the earlier actual exchange had.

And then another 12 hours later we get the Matt stuff, deadline discussion, etc etc.

Last bit of the recent post

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your bullshit read. You are mis-characterizing shit that I said, and I imagine you did it to others as well. You seem to think you have this awesome grasp on everything that's going on, but you are either blatantly changing shit around to create your own paradigm, or you are just seriously not able to read people. I can't tell if this is just you new to the game, or you being scum for the first time, but either way, its terrible logic.

Well the rest of the “bullshit read” was mostly in your favor (I still give you a fair bit of credit for that Matt post where you hounded people to get on Matt and off Fenn), so I’m not sure what you have to complain about in the rest of it.

My read consists basically of:
1) your case against saul was insubstantial, and then you got really belligerent that it was substantial and you were contributing tons when you hadn’t yet. Retroactively you add the defensiveness warrant, and now seem confused as to what order things happened in
2) even with retroactive additions the case is bad, yet you seem attached to it and angry whenever people think that it’s bad
3) You get on Matt for lurking and seems very towny about it
4) you now seem incredibly belligerent about defending something you are bluntly wrong about

My conclusion after weighing is you are probably just overly defensive town. I think you made a bad case, got attached to it, and then are mentally mixing stuff up in defending yourself because this play is too bad to be a wolf crafting stuff. WIFOM, but it feels right to me. And I do have trouble reconciling that post about Matt v Fenn with a wolf, unless bussing had already been decided on by then and wolves were playing for deep cover.

If I vote for fenn, and he pops town, then the entire discussion tomorrow is going to be about me, and how I'm scum, and that wastes a town day. So I'm going to put my vote on the guy that I think is most likely to be scum, and that's dtay. I don't buy that he is as inept as he is acting. His mischaracterizations of my arguments is suspicious as hell, and I think it's a wolf's attempt to use his newbness to throw out a lot of non-information that clouds the water. After I lynch, make sure you go back and check his big posts, because I'm sure you are going to find the same kind of crap there that existed in his character assassination on me.

Either brilliant wolf play here or legitimate expression of all the above, because this feels real. Felt odd to leave this out.

[Gaspar]

Bleh.

Got what we deserved for being lazy today. I don't think this vote will tell us much till we get a few more bodies and the day certainly left a limited trail. I should have held a bit more conviction myself - I'd feel better with what we'd have learned from hanging novice or Lewwyn than what we get from Fenn. Though seriously bud, if you're on the block all day and you have a role to claim, you can't wait that long. Give at least a few hours for the town to react.

Anyway, who dies tonight should clear the picture slightly and at least personally I'll try and drive a little more next day.