[SPOILERS] Donovan Zoi and AdrienIer: Slümhund Millionaires!

[Donovan Zoi]

Original thread title: Donovan Zoi and AdrienIer Negotiate DMZ with the AI

You guessed it, lurkers. My fictitious middle name is Magellan. You were expecting something less pretentious?

OK, so we are going to try this again. AdrienIer was gracious enough to offer to dedlurk again for me (as he did in the infamous PB24), but I refused on the condition that we instead share the eventual blame equally as game partners. I am delighted to be working with him again and look forward to actually playing the turns we plan out this time.

I was pretty gung ho about the last game, so I will admit that I am a bit gun-shy about expending the same amount of TLC to this thread after what happened there. But I am sure that once we get rolling, my bitter disappointment at PB24's fiery outcome will be a distant memory and a new level of determination will rise from those ashes and bring the mighty [Zulu again?] to glory!

Speaking of which, next order of business will be the snake pick! But first, I'll give my esteemed colleague a chance to introduce himself.

[AdrienIer]

Ok let's do this ! So overall what do we want with this game ? Win ? Have fun ? Both ? In any case we want good picks because we'll be playing for a long time. Unless Retep throws his magic at us again and we don't play at all. But let's not consider that option.

Right now I'm considering either Genghis of Zulu or Julius of HRE. The starting position will probably make them both impossible but still. Now why Imp ? Everyone seems to think it's not a great trait. Yet PB19, PB20 have been won by imp leaders (Joao and Charlemagne), Justinian is one of the contenders for PB22 and the scoreboard of PB23 has 3 imp leaders at the top. Let's even put aside all parts of the trait except the +60% settler build speed. Does that bonus make the trait that good ? First, I intend to find out so that's part of why I want to play it. Secondly I realized something while simming for PB23, it's not great if you slowbuild your settlers because the food doesn't get the bonus and your early game should prioritize the food resources. It's great when you put overflow into your settler, or chop/whip them.

Imp makes your settlers an automatic overflow/chop dump and you get lots and lots of free hammers with that. If you get 15h of overflow into an exp worker you get 20h total, plus maybe your 5h natural production which takes it to 26h. Pretty good. But getting 15h overflow plus 5h naturally into a settler gets you 32. Not that impressive ? But you can also build a warrior, chop it, get 15h overflow into your settler (building it for just one turn) then go back to building another warrior. That way you grow as you build settlers. IMO, if you do this right you can use this to grow your cities a lot faster by spending less turns building settlers because you're not building them unless you're overflowing/chopping/whipping them, most of the time anyway. And you know, 48h whips are really nice.

[spacetyrantxenu]

[Donovan Zoi]

Ok let's do this ! So overall what do we want with this game ? Win ? Have fun ? Both ? In any case we want good picks because we'll be playing for a long time. Unless Retep throws his magic at us again and we don't play at all. But let's not consider that option.

See Xenu's gif for reference (Hi Xenu!)....Like our beloved Frank Underwood (FU if we stay with the whole initial thing), I want to win this game by doing whatever it takes. That doesn't mean we can't still have fun in the process.

Right now I'm considering either Genghis of Zulu or Julius of HRE. The starting position will probably make them both impossible but still. Now why Imp ? Everyone seems to think it's not a great trait. Yet PB19, PB20 have been won by imp leaders (Joao and Charlemagne), Justinian is one of the contenders for PB22 and the scoreboard of PB23 has 3 imp leaders at the top. Let's even put aside all parts of the trait except the +60% settler build speed. Does that bonus make the trait that good ? First, I intend to find out so that's part of why I want to play it. Secondly I realized something while simming for PB23, it's not great if you slowbuild your settlers because the food doesn't get the bonus and your early game should prioritize the food resources. It's great when you put overflow into your settler, or chop/whip them.

Imp makes your settlers an automatic overflow/chop dump and you get lots and lots of free hammers with that. If you get 15h of overflow into an exp worker you get 20h total, plus maybe your 5h natural production which takes it to 26h. Pretty good. But getting 15h overflow plus 5h naturally into a settler gets you 32. Not that impressive ? But you can also build a warrior, chop it, get 15h overflow into your settler (building it for just one turn) then go back to building another warrior. That way you grow as you build settlers. IMO, if you do this right you can use this to grow your cities a lot faster by spending less turns building settlers because you're not building them unless you're overflowing/chopping/whipping them, most of the time anyway. And you know, 48h whips are really nice.

You have me intrigued about the Imperialistic trait now, even without mentioning the 100% GG bonus that goes with it. I know I had rated it at third tier in PB24 and therefore really didn't consider it.

I like your choice of Genghis (AGR, IMP) and there are many civs that would work well with him. For instance the Zulu and Celts would be nice due to how each UU could treverse well over hilly terrain. But I am also considering the Maya for 3 reasons.

1. Maya start with Mining and Mysticism, which gives us a shot at an early religion and or/ a beeline to BW (with Hunting) for the resourceless Holkan.
2. The Ball Court UB (Colosseum) gives 3 happy without using the culture slider, which would allow either additional slaving or growth.
3. If we pick Genghis first, I don't think anyone will grab Maya while we wait.

Of course we could choose Maya and end up getting both metals in the first ring. But you never know.

Other options to consider

Mehmed (EXP/ORG): I am still bummed that I didn't get to see how we did with this leader. With the RtR 30/20/20... whip penalty, the bonus on 7 high end buildings could have saved us hammers and population in a sprawling empire, even more that can be gained from 60% off Settlers. But I did read through the PB24 threads once the last nail was driven in, and raised a lot of eyebrows for the lack of synergy Mehmed had with the Zulu. But come on guys, 7 half-price buildings!

Boudica (AGG/CHA): We lose the Settler bonus but with free Combat I and -25xp we would be able to field units with either Formation or Amphibious with a simple Barracks/Theocracy (or Vassalage) combo. We could even set up an Amphib army without the extra civics with some strategic barb hunting. Much of this will depend on the map, of course. But if we have a water start, the Settler bonus may not be as important 'cause we'll be snatching coastal cities with a quickness.

Aztecs: If this civ is still available when we pick, would you want to consider it? This may be a moot point with Joey picking first, but it would be good to discuss anyway.

[AdrienIer]

Yeah Mehmed is nice, Boudica is great for warfare but I think Julius is the best leader in the game. That may be just a bias on my part it's just that he's got such great synergy within himself ! He goes with lots of civs too, Aztecs HRE Vikings Portugal Germany get their UB double speed, and you can just expand without limit.
Maya go well with Cre too.

I don't mind taking Aztecs on the way in and the best org leader possible on the way back.

[Old Harry]

Your start. The fog is made of mist and mirage.

[AdrienIer]

You're tempting us with a cap 1N to get the stone in range at the expense of a 2h plant. I hate you. And I won't take the bait.
Zulu is nice here. I suggest taking them on the way in and hoping for Genghis to stay unpicked.

[Donovan Zoi]

Thanks for the map, Harry!

Visible stone is a bit exciting and makes me want to consider an Industrious leader. More on that later....

Based on what I see here, I think we need to have a civ that starts with Agriculture and/or Fishing. The only 3 civs that start with both are:

America - UU and UB come in too late, don't think they are ideal for PB game.
Dutch - While the enhanced Galleon is nice, it's too hard to tell if it will really benefit us. The Dike is an awesome UB for coastal cities but don't really want to bet the farm on lots of coastal cities.
Native America - Both the UU and the UB really don't match the game I want to play.

I should also note that we should probably stay away from HRE now seeing that civ starts with neither of these techs.

So that leaves us to choose one tech or the other for starters, and Agriculture makes the most sense due to its higher cost. Here are the breakdowns by paired tech:

Hunting

With no livestock in our immediate vicinity there is really no rush for this tech. However, the two available covs here are Zulu and Persia, both with awesome UUs and decent UBs. I would prefer the Zulu here, though we would determine our Horses situation early going the AH route (for the Deer).

Mysticism

Part of me would like to go for an early religion, mostly for OR, but if we don't get Meditation first then we have to stay committed to the cause. This would hamper our ability to get the 3 techs we need to develop our land, as well as a play for Masonry since we have Stone.

So, so long to Inca and Arabia, though there are good things about both.

The Wheel

While roads are nice, I still think that Mining/BW is the stronger path. Shouldn't really matter which one we actually start with though.

There are 5 civs that start Agri/Wheel:

Egypt - War Chariot is nice, but Obelisk is only helpful for a shrine.
Babylon - Bowman is a good unit, but I think we will be delaying Archery for awhile. Garden just gives culture we will already get from Barracks.
Sumeria - A definite possibily. Zuggurat is awesome, but Vulture is a weakened Axeman against other Melee units.
France - Late game UU and UB. Two-move Muskets are great, but +1 specialist from the enhanced Observatory comes pretty late.
Ottomans - Janissary is a well rounded unit, and the Hamman gives additional happiness to a building that otherwise not always needed until later.

Mining (with Agriculture)

If you haven't figured it out by now, I have been unveiling my choices of pairing tech in reverse order. Along with Agri, Mining gives us the best chance of finding the right path based on what unfolds. We can go AH > Writing > Aesthetics to find some good Wonders to go with our 50-100% advantage, or jump right into Masonry for even more wonders. The BW path is also right there for he taking.

Korea - This is one that actually has me intrigued, only because I typically build alot of Catapults. The Hwacha can be a nice deterrent to the stack that is strictly Mounted and Melee. The Seowon comes a bit late but at least its a University.
Chinese - I played as the Chinese in the Apolyton DemoGame and I am playing as the Chinese in PB22 right now. That said, I think I will pass this time out.

OK so at this point, the three civs I am leaning toward are Korea, Ottomans and Sumeria. But let's take a look at one more thing:

Mining (with Fishing)

It doesn't really matter which tech we start with between Agri and Fishing, except for teh 20 hammer difference. So the following Civs are possibilties as well:

Carthage - This is probably my favorite of this group. Combat I Numids along with additional trade routes in Harbor towns with the Cothon.
Rome - Praets and the Forum. Not sure I want to go this route.
English - Seeing that I am getting my hat handed to me by Gavagai with PB22 with this civ, it may be a consideration if we have the patience. After all, revenge is best served cold. Redcoats are pretty devastating if you beat your rivals to Rifling, and the Stock Exchange is no slouch.
Portugal - The Carrack could provide some surprise to an enemy, and the extra commerce on water tiles could be nice too if I have the need to actually build a Customs House.

OK, so based on the above, these are the six civs I would consider (in my order of preference) I am only truly excited about the first 3 however:

Korea
Carthage
Zulu
England
Sumeria
Ottomans

I should also state that a new leader emerged as a favorite after reviewing the map. I really wanted to play a game as Aggressive this time out, and I would also like to double down on our nearby stone to run the table on some decent wonders with an Inustrious leader. This would make my fist choice Stalin!

I think that Stalin of Korea would provide great support for our Hwachas, and if we are able to get Pyramids to help our research, then SoZ, we wouldn't need to have a civic to get 3 promos on Melee/GP units. This could give us an inside track on both military and tech if we play this right.

Let me know what you think, Adrien. I am sure there are factors I have missed.

[Donovan Zoi]

Even though we are awake at the same time for once, Adrien, I need to get some shut eye. It's cool that we agree on the Zulu, but let me know what you think of the rest.

Re: the Industrious trait, I still have second thoughts about it. I wil still consider it though, so please give me your thoughts on the above and I can do the same thing with narrowing down leaders tomorrow if you find it necessary.

[AdrienIer]

I'll answer when I get home, can't answer properly on phone. If you're human you should still be asleep then so no hurry.