[SPOILERS] Donovan Zoi and AdrienIer: Slümhund Millionaires!

[Donovan Zoi]

I need to start disclaiming my ideas better. I just thought it was wild that we could get GW that early, and thought I would throw it out there. But I am also aware that any sims we do beyond our first Settler are speculative at best until we scout out our second city options.

I like your idea about settling to connect the Stone. The thought had occurred to me while I was simming, but I thought it was more important to bet my reputation on championing an early GW gambit. Plus that makes our play for the Pyramids much more competitive.

I took a look at PB22 to see when 3 wonders we are discussing were built.

Stonehenge: 2040 BC (IIRC)
Pyramids: 950 BC
Great Wall: 900 BC

So I agree with your assessment about GW against Pyramids entirely. The +3 from Representation (happiness is my other main concern besides commerce), along with our FW, makes us really strong for the early game.

Incidentally, before I settled on our new Germano-Indian thread title, I had considered naming it:

AdrienIer is the Wind Against Donovan Zoi's Icarus Wings

That's a compliment, by the way. I think your practical knowledge of the game balances my "let's see what sticks" approach nicely.

[Donovan Zoi]

Other notes/questions:

1. How many cities can we expect to get from 9 civs on a standard map? I have a feeling that the map will get cramped fairly early, and put to rest any notion of overvaluing the GW for keeping out barbs.

2. Do we even make a play for the Oracle at this point? I believe that one showed up in PB22 at 1160 BC, but it would take the Meditation/Priesthood path to get there. With us already ceding the early religions to the other 4 Myst players, perhaps we should not be swayed from our other paths.

3. Once we've collected our food techs and Masonry, it may be good to follow the Writing > Aesthetics path (after Pottery and Fishing unless can be proven otherwise), to get to the standard Library and SoZ. If we land Pyramids, it will be really easy to get an Academy or two up and running with GPs, and SoZ will even us out somewhat against the Aggressive civs as well as let us stay in OR or Bureaucracy when the time comes.

4. Incidentally, at what tech do Academies become available? I'm not able to look now.

[AdrienIer]

That would be t49 t77 and t79. Until we get stone I prefer settlers to GW.

15 cities maybe ? Not sure

If we're avoiding religion because we get stonehenge we could go straight for writing->maths. SoZ is +3xp, it's good but not as awesome as before.

Academies have no tech requirements, am I wrong ?

[Donovan Zoi]

OK, here are some general ideas regarding the picks of the other teams. I don't have the tech tree in front of me so please feel free to correct me on any errors:

retep: Joao of Aztecs (Mysticism/Hunting) (Exp/Imp, SA, jaguar)

With a solid opening combo of EXP/IMP, retep will likely grow vastly and aim for CoL as soon as possible for SA relief, perhaps avoiding the religious path since he may be in the same position as us in regards to few viable worker starts. Besides that, chasing an early religion would also be at the expense of delaying his resourceless UU.

If this happens, this may make some of his cities ripe for capture as long as we are equipped to deal with his GG bonus. Also, the Forge beats Custom House for the one building bonus we don't share.

Commodore + dtay: Sitting Bull of Inca (Mysticism/Agriculture) (Pro/Phi, Totem pole, dog soldier)

First thing I notice is that the two-headed monster that is Commo-tay would be foolish not to race us for Stonehenge since they have the Totem Pole as their UB. If they beat us, the +3xp to Archery units will further bolster their PRO trait in all cities. Starting with Agri, they may be able to go right to Mining > Masonry and try and get the jump on us, depending on their land. Even if they add BW, they would still be ahead of us by around 9 turns, but our chops will be worth more. Depends how bad they want it, I guess.

BW also grants them the Jaguar's little brother, the Dog Soldier. Another resourceless Melee unit could cause some early game war/choke trouble for a neighbor. Because Commodore.

Grimace: Ramesses of Celtia (Mysticism/Hunting) (Spi/Ind, dun, gallic warrior)

The only Spiritual civ, we should be watching the F4 screen periodically to see how he uses this to his advantage. Other than that, Grimace is our main competition for Wonders but I don't see him challenging us for Stonehenge as I think he may follow a religious path to get the 1/2 price temples for early happiness.

Militarily, the Dun/Gallic Warrior route will prove fearsome along hilly terrain, as it will be tough to stop their progress if the are able to map out the right path. Even the Dun on it's own would be trouble, but probably not enough in the early game to sway Grimace from religion.

Borsche + AgentJohns: Shaka of Ottomans (Agriculture/Wheel) (Exp/Agg, hammam, janissary)

The Ottomans were one of the picks I was holding out for, and mostly because of the Hammam. The early 2 happiness is essential to get a growth advantage on your rivals, and of course synergizes nicely with the EXP trait. The Janissary comes a bit late, but is still a formidable unit and even more so when enriched by the AGG trait.

They start with Agri and Wheel so a beeline to get the Hammam is not out of the question. I think they will play a peaceful game for starters.

HAK + Fenn: Mehmed of HRE (Mysticism/Hunting) (Exp/Org, Rathaus, landsknecht)

HAK/Fenn have my old friend Mehmed and all the discounted buildings he brings with him. It's also the third Mysticism/Hunting pair we have seen (I hope there are not a lot of Pig out there). Rathaus pairs very nicely with ORG, so HAK/Fenn will be able to support a large empire as well.

Now let's talk about the Landsknecht UU. There is no doubt about its power but you had better strike first with it. It comes at a time when Maces and Knights could also be available, making it vulnerable if softened with Siege units since it would rise to the top of many battles.

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I may go back and grade these later, but not until I have a chance to look at the Civilopedia. I'll post the last 4 civs, which includes us, later today.

[Miguelito]

As a German I have to throw in that the title looks very much Turko-Indian to my eyes.
Commotay are Sitting Bull of Inca, you may want to reconsider some of your expectations regarding them

[Donovan Zoi]

Gavagai: Mao of Carthage (Fishing/Mining) (Exp/Pro, cothon, numids)

My main nemesis this game, Gavagai has defied my expectations with this pick. I am not really sure what to make of it, but it seems pretty balanced. It appears he is betting heavily on a water map with the Cothon and a Fishing start, and using buffed PRO will help him defensively. He may also have good initial food support in a 5-hill city, where Mining > BW will give him a jump on production.

Gavagai will also marshal my Numids which get Combat I and can be pretty strong with a barracks/stable combo. I am just surprised that he won't be supporting the UU with the AGG trait to support them with other units that much more quickly. Perhaps he is just looking for a first-line defense against any trouble while he grows and makes that $$, since you have to stay pretty friendly to max out your extra trade routes.

Elkad: Hammurabi of the Dutch (Fishing/Agriculture) (Agg/Org, dike, EI)

I was trying to think of a good leader to match with the Dutch and Hammurabi seems to be a good one. Because of this, Elkad will have the ability to grow a vast empire based on early military prowess in order to stay viable for the mid game where his picks really shine. His army will be of standard units, but once they are able to be transported via East Indianman, it will definitely cause trouble for a neighbor.

Elkad is also starting with two food techs, so quick growth is likely. Also a quick jump to sailing may happen to test out those sea legs.

German Joey: Genghis Khan of the Zulu (Agriculture/Hunting) (Agg/Imp, Ikhanda, impi)

And now for your nemesis. IIRC, Joey is also giving you troubles in PB22 (I have had my own problems to deal with, so haven't been looking at your side of the map closely in that one, to be honest ).

Well, GJ has your dream pick of Genghis of the Zulu, which also matches the type of game I wanted to play when we started. I still can't believe he got away with it, so there's not much to this pick that we don't already know. We will definitely have some issues if Joey is next to us.

Starting with Agri/Hunting, it will only take Mining > BW (and Copper of course) for the Impi to be a problem. Supported by Combat I, cheap Ikhandas and early Great Generals, this Mobilty unit will definitely trump ours in battle. His cities will plant quickly as well, and I see Joey forgoing early economy builds in favor of pathological coveting due to the decreased maintenance costs that the AGG trait and Ikhanda will provide.

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It's kind of odd how the second round of the snake picks nearly lined up as a countdown of increasing disappointment for our team. The last two here were your strongest picks, and I had wanted Carthage and both sides of the Ottomans at certain points. It's noteworthy that the Zulu and the Ottomans are the only civs that also have their leader representing elsewhere in this game, and each supports a totally different type of play style. This will certainly be an interesting game, especially playing on a much more claustrophobic Standard map.

Next up:

Donovan Zoi + AdrienIer: Bismarck of India! (Myst/Wheel) (Exp/Ind, mausoleum, FW)

Should we request red as our color?

[AdrienIer]

Carthage is orange no ? So we're actually the only pink/purple civ ?

[Donovan Zoi]

As a German I have to throw in that the title looks very much Turko-Indian to my eyes.
Commotay are Sitting Bull of Inca, you may want to reconsider some of your expectations regarding them

Hey thanks for the heads up on that, Miguelito. I rarely fact check Adrien but I should have caught that. I'll fix it momentarily.

I was actually afraid my thread title would end up being incorrect somehow. Being a typical American based in the Midwest, I've been afforded the right to dismiss such nuances and true to form, I apparently nailed it. All I did was translate "dog" to the German "hund" and an arbitrary umlaut to one of the U's for effect, so I thought I had it covered.

Then again, I am the decider on this so despite your noble attempt to correct me, I think I will keep it, flaws and all.

It's no wonder the world hates us.

[Donovan Zoi]

Carthage is orange no ? So we're actually the only pink/purple civ ?

They might be, I don't think I have played them in a game. I thought the flag was a shade of purple though, so I was going with that. I am fine staying with purple if we've cornered the market on it.

[AdrienIer]

Oh yeah sorry I just saw Sitting Bull and went with the full NA lot. Of course it's pro inca and we now have the most impressive player pair with a very impressive combo. Ouch.