[Spoilers] Ceterum Peter censet Carthaginem fore triumphatrix - Adrien + Miguelito

[AdrienIer]

Oh you're right, I'm too used to normal speed.

[Miguelito]

So in the end we're actually going for the aesthetics route ? What happenned to talking me out of it ?

If we get the MoM I think we should go for the music artist during the first GA which, added to another GS we would produce naturally would make a 24t GA. Then we'd run through the military techs till guilds and maybe kill a neighbor. It's risky because we'd be running ancient era military for a long time (although archery/HBR could be put in between some of these) but if our power graph looks good enough we could get away with it.

I also have great sympathy for TGL and the epics (though we don't have a HE unit as yet; the THH warrior is on 6 and the axe could get to 7xp during the next two turns). Rationally I think it might not be that good of an idea and that MC or Compass will be stronger than yet another wonder run... particularly if the last version of my THH reading is correct and we are competing with him for the first to's. But I like your double GA idea and TGL and NE both enable that, enough of an excuse :D. Anyways, I'm saving enough gold right now to tech straight through to literature (gonna check how much that is exactly next turn).

However one thing I want to discuss about double GA: To my understanding, you generally want to use a GA to get the next GPs out with caste, starving food-strong cities. Now with such a long GA, no city will stand so many turns of working a food deficit, and we actually have no really food strong cities (the closest ones to that are Pfeffi, GD, and TOS, where however working specialists hurts a bit because the tiles are so good. I have some expectations for the wheat/sheep/rice city, but otoh it's just 3x 4f, not all that overwhelming).

I propose we save gold. If THH just takes TGL during the next turns we go for something else. If not, we try for literature and then head for the GA. If we see worrying stacks or power spikes, we get numids, which should get us safe pre-CKNs. What can we do about CKNs before knights? No idea, cats+numids?

[AdrienIer]

Numids are good but he'll have spears so yeah cats and numids is best

[Miguelito]

While Al still seems to be playing / discussing, I'd like to bring up the issue of how we plan to improve our land. The situation is quite particular because Commodore put very little fresh water on the map. Here is an overview (with all captions removed):



If I am right and irrigation can not be spread over the PH where TOS is, everything south of the pink line is dry land. Else, we can farm over what already is a hamlet and will be a village by the time we get CS, but still everything W of Emerald is dry, including these rice and wheat, if not one of our opponents plays extremely nice and builds a complicated channel network to irrigate us.
So, considering there aren't food resources all around planted densely, I think we'll end up without real workshop cities, only in the Northeast it's sort of possible (will have to farm over our latest cottage but ok), but then that land is lots of deserts/plains/tundra. So we will want farms there, but workshops...? doubt it.
While the lack of farming options favours cottaging, there are few of the typical cottage-me river sites (TOS and Pfeffi). So what can we do to get cities tall? Might we even see some windmills?
Lack of food affects us in particular because it makes GP generation more difficult (the other way to read this is is that opur opponents will have a really hard time to get their GPs while we at least have the bonus)

My short to mid term plans on this issue are a farm on the one left grasland at peas. That way it has 3 3f and 1 4f tile s available (all shared at some point) and could be able to get a GP now and then. To my surprise, Hulk, with 2 food resources (one unshared) and a lot of green land should actually get cottages. It sort of sucks for a border city because it makers the bounty prettier but I feel we don't have many spots where we can do that. Maybe also cottage the grasslands around emerald (which already gets 2 commerce resources), but that's it.
Also, part of our CY backwardness is caused by not having those fishes. The problem is, both need border pops, which I'd like to do with Caste artists, and we have more important land claims to make right now. But maybe the silver spot could go after the next three plants (doubt it, I really hope we scout better locations by then)

Btw, the 'E' dot (in the west, on Al/Mardoc's lake) isn't happening, right?

Evaluating the terrain I saw THH's FP plains again . OTOH if he wins I'll know what to blame it on :P. Did I mention he has 10 cities to our 7 ? At least we're going to be on 9 in 2 turns.

[AdrienIer]

That sounds right. I don't mind having a cottage heavy land, we'll stay in slavery longer that's all. Not great for a phi civ relying on specialists and GP but nothing we can do.
And yeah we should reevaluate which cities we want to settle.

[Miguelito]

haven't played yet, but Mausoleum and Colossus got built . MoM fell to Al.

[AdrienIer]

Ok... How about using our wonder city with all the forests to chop TGL ?

[AdrienIer]

I know it's not a great location for it because it's a crappy city and you want TGL in a relatively good city but I don't see another good wonder we could chop there.

[Miguelito]

Hanging Gardens. Advantages I see:
- the aqueduct part is whippable at full efficiency, the 100h for the wonder can be chopped out right away. So once we get to size 4, we've got it.
- we can start it now, not after x turns of research.
- THH is the only one who hasn't built a wonder yet. He got marble but can't get stone. Also, some turns ago a GS was born and THH has many libraries. I suspect him of aiming for an academy TGL. If he wants it he gets it.
- We are in a growing phase, every pop we get is great.
- it doesn't matter it's in a crappy city
Disadvantages:
- HG is better the more cities you've got. We are last in that count.
- the +1 health is kind of pointless for Exp

I think the advantages weigh more; if you don't object I'll start the aqueduct next turn. If we don't want it immediately, we can even save the one forest at Pfeffi.

Also, despite we don't need marble right now, I founded Caipirinha (green and on ice):


I can't explain how, but after founding our net income actually rose (I suspect TR recalculation; the city itself gets 5 commerce but rose expenses by 9)

Considering what I wrote above, it seems quite unlikely that we get TGL, unless THH is over-confident or decides to chop out SoZ or Parthenon instead. However, Literature is a little more than 3 turns of current 100% research, so if we don't see the wonder fall, we can try. If it falls, I prefer MC or Compass (probably the latter). As a consolation price, ToA also gives 5 base GPP, a Rep specialist, + the trade route thing (hilarious though that it costs the same hammers).

Our axe should get to 7 xp next turn, if not someone else snacks that barb

[Dreylin]

Also, despite we don't need marble right now, I founded Caipirinha (green and on ice):

I always found caipirinhas better on a nice sandy beach in the sun, but whatever floats your boat!