WW37- For Whom the Bell Trolls

[Lewwyn]

I hate to let you off the hook, but I need sleep.

Come at me tomorrow bro, I've got nothing to hide.

[zakalwe]

Based on the day message? My vote is cult. So who got turned?

That message was probably written by a player (possibly even Goreripper posthumously, who knows if he left anything out about his role) - doubt the GM flavor posts would so directly hint at a cult. Most likely, we have a player out there who thinks there's a cult about, or at least wants everyone else to think so.

That the message originates from a player is a reasonable hypothesis, given that it was set apart from the rest of the write-up in the way that it was. Bob had an ability like that himself, in an earlier game. The note includes a lot more information (or at least text) than "I suspect there's a cult", though. Also, it closely mimics Bob's writing style, who has a fondness for words like "acerbic" and "moronic". So maybe it's a message from the GM to a player, i.e. it is reporting the results of a night action. If the message does originate from a player, I think it's most likely to be disinformation, since a townie would just speak plainly about what he knows or suspects. No need to be so cryptic about it, and no need to mimic Bob's style.

There's no way such a player could know one way or another on N1, so this message doesn't help too much.

I think that is assuming too much, regardless of the above. There could be day-time actions, and people could start the game with all sorts of information from their role PMs. For example, if the note really is an investigation result, then it sounds like someone is immune to cult recruitment.

Conclusion: I think there's a cult. Otherwise, someone is going to great lengths to convince us that there is.

[Rowain]

No death that's good

A note about a cult?: Hm Maybe that is the scumteam name or it is a new team? Or it has to do with recruiting which after a night without death is a scarry thought. But all this speculation doesn't really help to lynch scum.

So back to business. I didn't like Gaz game on D1 but I do like his posts during the night. I do see villager Gaz there. That he rose to 5 votes so quickly makes me wonder.
From those on him I like dtay the least.

First he puts his vote

I liked Pind's arguments against Gazglum, Gaz did you every respond to those? I didn't see if so when I read through the night.

Then Agnes points to Gaz answer here

But when dtay later returns he gives no indication he had bothered to read Gaz answer nor his take on it he just happily leaves his vote on Gaz.

[zakalwe]

Tally as of post 353:

5 votes: Gazglum (Agnes The Orphan, dtay, Jabbz, zakalwe, Lewwyn)
1 votes: Novice (Gazglum)
1 votes: dtay (Rowain)

Voting history:

Novice

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

dtay

[zakalwe]

Lewwyn, who are your other two suspects?

[Mattimeo]

I didn't like how Matt was posting some nothing posts when we know how much of a lurker crusader Mattimeo is: I won't post unless I have something to say, or something like that is what I've heard him say before in games.

You're slightly out of date on this; at some point I picked up that people with heaps of posts generally have fairly inconsequential or non-topical stuff peppered through, often comprising full (if very small) posts, so I started running with that somewhat to buff out post count so I'm not so blatantly lurking.
(This does, of course, necessitate spending sufficient time to inject such remarks in a timely manner, which really didn't eventuate last game)

And right before that he had attacked zak on a pretty bad misread of what zak said. He attributed zak as being disingenuous and claiming he had taken a stance that zak hadn't actually taken. Like he was looking for things to jump on in order to make a case. Just in general, his tone is different this game.

Excuse me? The issue was that zak was attributing arguments to me that I wasn't making, and I was correcting that mistake (and throwing accusatory words he used back in his face).

You'll note the lack of a vote accompanying such, too. If all I was doing was 'looking for things to jump on', with what (little) else was on offer that would have been entirely sufficient to, you know, actually jump on.
Instead, what I pulled out of the whole things was a slight village lean on zak - more 'town arguing a point I disagreed with' than 'scum attempting to push a course of action I consider rather detrimental to town'.

Also, I didn't particularly want to bring it up in the argument at the time, but:

Being forced to claim first can still be uncomfortable for scum.

This is stated in a way that, at least to me, implies that it shouldn't be uncomfortable for town - I mean, if you're trying to pull a read off the fact that someone is uncomfortable to claim, you do kinda need to have in mind what read you should be pulling from it, and this implies it should be 'scum'.
I can think of very good reasons why town would find it uncomfortable to claim. My role in this game, for instance. So the argument that being uncomfortable when forced to claim first is capable of giving a useful read I find very suspect.

You know, Mattimeo, you never did address me day 1. You answered Rowain and Lewwyn but i don't see you responding to what I didn't like about your posting.

What exactly did you ask me on d1? Other than the whole 'completely misreading what I was saying' that I just covered?

more general stuff coming

[Agnes The Orphan]

No death that's good

A note about a cult?: Hm Maybe that is the scumteam name or it is a new team? Or it has to do with recruiting which after a night without death is a scarry thought. But all this speculation doesn't really help to lynch scum.

So back to business. I didn't like Gaz game on D1 but I do like his posts during the night. I do see villager Gaz there. That he rose to 5 votes so quickly makes me wonder.
From those on him I like dtay the least.

First he puts his vote

I liked Pind's arguments against Gazglum, Gaz did you every respond to those? I didn't see if so when I read through the night.

Then Agnes points to Gaz answer here

But when dtay later returns he gives no indication he had bothered to read Gaz answer nor his take on it he just happily leaves his vote on Gaz.

Eh, I get the feeling Dtay's lack of response to that is simply out of time pressure (it's no short post) and that he's only responding to stuff directed at him directly in the interim. I mean, I definitely want to hear more of him, but I don't think his lack of response is particularly sinister.

[zakalwe]

Also, I didn't particularly want to bring it up in the argument at the time, but:

Being forced to claim first can still be uncomfortable for scum.

This is stated in a way that, at least to me, implies that it shouldn't be uncomfortable for town - I mean, if you're trying to pull a read off the fact that someone is uncomfortable to claim, you do kinda need to have in mind what read you should be pulling from it, and this implies it should be 'scum'.
I can think of very good reasons why town would find it uncomfortable to claim. My role in this game, for instance. So the argument that being uncomfortable when forced to claim first is capable of giving a useful read I find very suspect.

There's a difference between being forced to reveal your town role in a role madness game, and potentially being forced to invent a fake claim. The former just risks putting town at a slightly higher information disadvantage (sort of; your fellow townies also gain information), while the latter may very well get you lynched on the spot. You've been leaning heavily on Agnes' premise that scum can just claim their own roles whatever they may be, but I really don't think that is the case for every bad guy. If there's a "Mad Cultist" role out there, for example, then he certainly can't do so.

It does get progressively easier to invent fake claims as more genuine roles are revealed, but given that we only had one flip and one claim so far, I think we're still in a position where it's going to be uncomfortable for scum to make the next claim. (And yes, more uncomfortable than it will be for the average townie.) But the window of opportunity will be closing soon enough.

Who did you target last night?

[Mattimeo]

People on me at deadline:
Lewwyn - 6am deadline coupled with being rather intoxicated when last seen before sleep.
dtay - claimed 'joke vote' and 'trying to find someone to vote for' then, well, didn't.
Shadeun - OMGUS, backed up with 'well, now I've voted I'm sticking with it, because OMGUS'
Goreripper - self defence (also 57005)

Couldn't switch, 'couldn't switch', OMGUS and self defence. Not particularly what I want to see on a wagon that almost lynched me :/

Do like novice's attempt to draw Shadeun out a little. Not that ti gives any tells, but coaching newer players into, well, actually playing rather than just voting, is generally a net positive.
Shadeun has a slight town read for not showing any signs of being coached in a QT.

Dawn:
No kills is probably a good sign. Right? Right??
Message (looking like Goreripper, too, or at least someone spoofing him) seeming to imply cult :/
Cults are never good. And usually not particularly fun, to be entirely honest.
"despite signature, source uncertain" also doesn't bode to well, I don't think.

Interesting to see how quickly discussion of the lack of death and message petered out, replaced by a cacophony of calls for Gazglum to be lynched. The number of which I do find somewhat suspicious, especially at this stage of the day.
What's the main argument? Didn't want to risk me getting lynched in order to cause a no-lynch after claiming he would prefer to keep Gore around if possible? Forgive me for not exactly seeing the validity of a case that's built around someone *not* wanting to risk me being lynched after I just claimed a buffed doctor.

Lewwyn and Jabbz continue to argue completely past each other. And it looks like my attempt to cut off the d1 equivalent by pointing out that they were both damn well right (each about the specific point they were pushing) has been deemed "hedging". So I guess I should just let the spam that accomplished precisely nothing just accumulate next time without any attempt to curtail it? Got it.

[Mattimeo]

x-post:

There's a difference between being forced to reveal your town role in a role madness game, and potentially being forced to invent a fake claim. The former just risks putting town at a slightly higher information disadvantage (sort of; your fellow townies also gain information), while the latter may very well get you lynched on the spot. You've been leaning heavily on Agnes' premise that scum can just claim their own roles whatever they may be, but I really don't think that is the case for every bad guy. If there's a "Mad Cultist" role out there, for example, then he certainly can't do so.

It does get progressively easier to invent fake claims as more genuine roles are revealed, but given that we only had one flip and one claim so far, I think we're still in a position where it's going to be uncomfortable for scum to make the next claim. (And yes, more uncomfortable than it will be for the average townie.) But the window of opportunity will be closing soon enough.

hm, fair point.

Who did you target last night?

Myself. Lack of kill could be due to someone failing the 'can he self target?' WIFOM.

actual voting time:

But when dtay later returns he gives no indication he had bothered to read Gaz answer nor his take on it he just happily leaves his vote on Gaz.

That seems... rather familiar. Sounds almost exactly like something he did, well, yesterday.
dtay