So just finished another Sim, but didn't update the spreadsheet yet. Basically it was my Option3 (column C) but instead of the end being Pottery then Agri, I did Agri then Pottery. That turned out to be a pretty favorable setup at the T50 mark I'm comparing things to right now. Might not have time until later tonight, but I'll re-run it again keeping track of the details to do a side-by-side comparison.
But in summary by T50 it has us with all 6 techs, 3 cities (sizes 3, 4, & 1), 4 mines (one of them being the gold), Crab, Clam, Pig, Rice, 1 Cottage, 4 Workers, and anywhere from 2-4 Warriors (in my sim I only made two, but both C1 & C2 were 1 turn from finishing a Warrior when I switched it to a building).
All of my SIMs have been assuming that Wheel can come no later than 4th tech due to the need for copper. However, that was based on my (incorrect) tech speed.
I was running Agriculture as 3rd tech and you might be right about it being better. Despite my tech speed (Wheel EOT(42) compared to your scenario of Wheel EOT(36)!!!) I managed to get the 3rd city on T41 and the 5th worker on T44 by accidentally whipping and having a chop come in the same time. The problem is that without Fishing I'm running out of useful things to build.
I'll run 2 scenarios tonight (my minorly improved Fishing scenario) + replicate the Agriculture scenario and we can compare notes tomorrow AM.
My last couple sims have also been having Wheel as the 4th tech. It is whether Agri or Pottery goes next after that which I've been playing with now. So far, my best sim (I think) has the order be Mining-BW-Fishing-Wheel-Agri-Pottery. I don't have that one documented yet, but will do so in a couple hours when I get back home.
Don't forget to use my sandbox that I attached above if you haven't gotten your settings on yours properly for the tech rate.
First up, the Bear came back into view from the NW corner. So he apparently wanders that whole area, which could be somewhat good. But still will want to send a warrior up there ahead of the Settler.
So that's an interesting "wall" between us. It's a full 8-tile north to south of impassable terrain. Which is good for protection, but bad for support when/if I eventually expand in that direction. Certainly will be weird to maintain. And the bigger problem is that he'll be able to expand west towards me, and I won't be able to do anything about it.
I've added 2 sims in column K & L; with good documentation for once! Scenario 1 was Agriculture >> Wheel >> Fishingin >> Pottery.
I think this is ahead of your Agriculture SIM in hammers (barracks completed already and 5 warriors). I wasn't really trying to produce warrriors, just not much else to build. Hopefully copper will change that.
The other SIM was Fishing >> Wheel >> Pottery >> Agriculture. This one might be ahead of yours (at a glance) since it has completed a Granary in C2 and C3 is S2 and working gold while growing. C3 is a real problem without early fishing since its stagnant for so long. If we find a grain resource in the area I would definately think about moving that city (and give the crabs to our stone city) The borders will pop in the capital in due time for the gold i think.
Also, a cottage on grasslands is considered smoke. The reason, as I understand it and briefly, is that the cost of each tile is about 2/0/2. So you're -10 (-1gpt x 10) and then you're roughly neutral for the next 20 turns. This is why everyone wants riverside since you lose nothing (immediately produces 2/0/2) and then starts being a net benefit. Later on when there aren't so many 6/0/0 tiles as opportunity costs, you can afford to make those kinds of investments, but early on stick to riverside whenever possible.
I think that I also noticed a "whip a warrior" in your sim. Was that a typo for worker? If you meant warrior, we'll have to chat about when/when not to whip and overflow. While I was ded-lurking WLP in PB13 I think, I built a spreadsheet to help myself understand that question.
To add,....take a look at my approach and see if there's any benefit over your sim.
Also, the 2 SIMs I made plus probably your own are close enough in output that its likely to come down to subjective preferences. On that note, I still think that the fishing scenario, or more correctly the pottery earlier scenario is better for that granary and it just 'feels' more prepared to take a stab at that 2X corn city.
We'll have to think about whether we're going to take a stab at that city. The alternative is to be locked out of that region and just accept a 1st ring defensive plant (C2). If we're going to have a 2nd ring,...it should be that city. However, it's not necessarily a bad idea to leave that region to the other 3 but at the same time, Grimace has hurt his expansion with the religion play. If he also shoots for an early Stonehenge he'll be massively behind and very open to pink-dotting or pure takeover. We're positioned to do that especially with a 2corn city that can crank out a lot of it's own defences. Alternatives include expanding SW and/or a pyramids play with that island stone.
In all of your SIMs have you mined that GH NW of C1 as the first mine before you moved down to the PH? I actually stopped doing that in all my SIMs since I felt getting that extra Commerce sooner paid off better with the techs. Maybe I'll try another one with doing that GH first, since it's been awhile since I've looked at one like that.
And I see your point about the Cottage. I mostly had done that so the C2 would have a good tile to work which would eventually have a decent amount of commerce, but I guess making most of those farms would be better in the end. That city can just bounce back and forth between growing and whipping every 10 turns (or something like that).
Again, a lot of stuff will depend on where Copper shows up. With any luck it'll show up underneath somewhere we already have mined, or planned for a mine. Though having it one one of those Grasslands around C2 would also be cool. Nothing like a nice Grassland Copper Mine.
Here's the current turn details. We finished our Pig pasture....and for some reason Grimace only just started his Sheep pasture last turn (such that he still has 3 turns left). Not sure what he's been doing with his worker, or what he did such that he only just produced his worker last turn. Maybe he started a worker, switched to something else for a few turns, and then switched back? Just not sure what he might have done there.
And here are the Demos. This is after me & Gavagai having played turn. I'll log back in later after most everyone else has played to replace this with a new one, since if anyone else was working on an improvement it wouldn't show up in the Demos if they complete it this turn like I did. Need them to log in first for their worker to finish it. But for a brief moment, we are #1 in CY.
I've done one quick SIM with mining that GH first, and that is already looking better than my other SIMs of going straight to the PH. That extra coin of commerce doesn't seem to make enough of a difference. Also, I hadn't considered in any of my SIMs working the unimproved Rice farm to grow C1 before that mine finished. I'm already seeing why you did that method seemed better than my other SIMs. I'll do a new one later, with documenting the progress for a new comparison. Especially since we need to make that decision next turn.
(March 19th, 2015, 12:08)HitAnyKey Wrote: In all of your SIMs have you mined that GH NW of C1 as the first mine before you moved down to the PH? I actually stopped doing that in all my SIMs since I felt getting that extra Commerce sooner paid off better with the techs. Maybe I'll try another one with doing that GH first, since it's been awhile since I've looked at one like that.
And I see your point about the Cottage. I mostly had done that so the C2 would have a good tile to work which would eventually have a decent amount of commerce, but I guess making most of those farms would be better in the end. That city can just bounce back and forth between growing and whipping every 10 turns (or something like that).
Again, a lot of stuff will depend on where Copper shows up. With any luck it'll show up underneath somewhere we already have mined, or planned for a mine. Though having it one one of those Grasslands around C2 would also be cool. Nothing like a nice Grassland Copper Mine.
I did the GHM because it came online 1T earlier as well as saving a worker turn. It also comes in very handy when trying to get 9 base hammers for the capital. 2 centre tile + 3GHM + 4RPHM gives 12 HPT while building workers. This remains productive while handing all the food over to C2.
Not to say that we couldn't/shouldn't have a cottage on that tile (whereever it was) it's just that we can't afford the investment quite yet. Our capital is not great as a commerce city but we will eventually want shared cottages over there I think. C2 will have so much food once a lighthouse is built that it should produce an early GP for us.
(March 19th, 2015, 12:28)HitAnyKey Wrote: But for a brief moment, we are #1 in CY.
(March 19th, 2015, 12:28)HitAnyKey Wrote: I've done one quick SIM with mining that GH first, and that is already looking better than my other SIMs of going straight to the PH. That extra coin of commerce doesn't seem to make enough of a difference. Also, I hadn't considered in any of my SIMs working the unimproved Rice farm to grow C1 before that mine finished. I'm already seeing why you did that method seemed better than my other SIMs. I'll do a new one later, with documenting the progress for a new comparison. Especially since we need to make that decision next turn.
Until the map changes I think that we've probably squeezed as much as we can from the SIMs since neither of us are named Seven. The only thing that I can see improving it noticeably is settler at size2 or else pushing the Wheel out further. Neither option seems worth the risk premium given the tightness of the map. Still, we should keep an eye out for some unfortunate explorer wandering into the maw of that bear and try not to take any risks with our explorer if our warrior fails.
The borders will pop in the capital in due time for the gold i think. 
