WW37- For Whom the Bell Trolls

[zakalwe]

Based on the day message? My vote is cult. So who got turned?

That message was probably written by a player (possibly even Goreripper posthumously, who knows if he left anything out about his role) - doubt the GM flavor posts would so directly hint at a cult. Most likely, we have a player out there who thinks there's a cult about, or at least wants everyone else to think so. There's no way such a player could know one way or another on N1, so this message doesn't help too much. If we're betting, I'd say a role madness game about trolling sounds like the natural habitat of some kind of cult.

Fenn, you were saying that the message was a null tell in terms of hinting at a cult. I disagree with that. But you still left the door open for a cult, just based on the general premise of the setup. This is strange. In my mind, the message is a much stronger indicator of a cult, but you're dismissing that as a null tell, while still betting on a cult based on random speculation about the setup.

And then, later in the day, you go "helloooo cult leader"?

That suddenly sounds like you're very sure that there's a cult. Unless you just wanted to throw some dirt?

[Mattimeo]

I don't buy how you use your power; it seems very selfish actually. The one explanation that did make sense was you thought Jabbz was scum trying to figure out if he could night kill you, which is what you insinuated yesterday, but if you really think Jabbz is town then why don't you protect someone who's a strong town player? And I'm going through your posts but I really can't find your town reads -- there's a bit about Shaedun but that's it.

Still, why not protect zak or Lewwyn? They lean towards townie in my book and they're both strong players. If you don't trust Gazglum you must think novice is worth protecting, right?

But protecting yourself? That seems selfish and anti-town play. That seems like the play of someone who thinks he's against most of the people here. If you think Jabbz is scum, then it could make sense from a paranoia angle, but since you don't then I think it is far more likely you didn't want to risk being scanned by a potential seer out there than to actually think you were going to be the target of a night 1 kill.

Catching up over the night, but I've been fighting with a TA about a prior program that he forgot to grade and then gave me late points on. And my first final is in a couple hours. So yeah, no promises I'll be able to help push the case, but I REALLY don't like Mattimeo's play.

To summarise:
"I have realised it is going to be impossible to kill you unless I can get you lynched"
"Thus, I am going to be throwing every spurious accusation possible at you until that happens"

While the basic logic there is actually sound, it *really* doesn't paint a flattering picture of your innocence, there.
pindicator

Will probably switch to someone actually in contention, if anyone bothers to actually talk about the upcoming lynch, but holy shit does looking back over the past day or so just make pindi seem like he was probing until he count latch onto a 'mistake' to get someone who they won't be able to get rid of at night killed during the day, bloodying everyone else's hands.

[Agnes The Orphan]

So glad I rushed this out, given the response to it :rollseye:

Reposting so the godawful formatting is no excuse:

Well this is fun! I accept your pressure, as it shall turn my faults to diamonds. Nobody else want to pile on? Fenn, you are talking the talk but not walking the walk, where is the red vote?

Would anybody on me like to explain for the class what, exactly, the case is? That I didn’t vote Goreripper, a player I didn’t want to vote? I was on through deadline, I would have jumped to Gore to save myself. I didn’t want to vote him, Agnes, because I was making a point that I thought it was a bad lynch. I think I made it clear I didn’t want to vote Mattimeo either.

.

I only ever had three votes, and was always 2 votes behind the swing. I was hitting refresh, I assure you. If I had got another vote I would have defensive voted Goreripper.

.

What were my other options? I was already taking heat from Pindicator for my vote jumps, I didn’t really want to add fuel to that fire by jumping onto another lynch that I didn’t believe in. If I voted Matt I would be spending today answering why I wanted to lynch our protection role. Voting Goreripper would be more obviously defensive, but I thought it was a crappy policy lynch and didn’t want to be part of it if I didn’t have to be.

Up till here, it all works. Its not fine, and there are aspects I'd disagree with, but in the limited time I have, I'm glossing pas that. Here is where it goes to custard:

Related, general question, would you have preferred no-lynch over Matt or Commodore being lynched?

In a perfect world, probably no-lynch, but the only way I could have tried for a no-lynch would by voting Matt and putting him in danger of anybody else switching. And the Mattwagon was stinky cheese.

Gazglum is presented with two scenarios - one in which there is a no lynch, one in which goreripper is lynched. And he has no idea which one he wants most! In neither setup does he make a choice. When it's on no lynch, he has no qualms about how easily matt could swing. When it's proposed that he could be hung, he says he's refreshing and paying enough attention that it wont happen - but he doesn't think he could jump off matt? These three statements don't work together. And that's because they can't. Somewhere, in weaving his web of lies, Gazglum stumbled.

He's made a statement bow about which he preferred, and, predictably, it doesn't fit with hos actions. There's a reason for that - nothing he's stated as town can fit with his actions.

Gazglum dithered at the lynch. Why did he either? Because he didn't want to get himself dirty. But he still wanted gorerupper dead. Why? Because he's scum.

Sorry for the absolutely inexcusable formatting, I have no time.

[Gazglum]

Oh my God Agnes, you suck.

At this time it looks like we'll have a no lynch, but it could still very easily have swung either way, or even onto you. With last-minute lynches being what they are, it was by no means guaranteed that you'd be able to vote Gore in time.

So it is no means guaranteed that I would be able to change my vote in a last-second deadline situation, but at the same time I am scum because I should have danced my vote to Matt and then danced it off again if someone else moved? Can you see the contradiction in these attacks?

If I wanted Goreripper dead, why wouldn't I have just voted for him? Do you think it would have looked so scummy to place a defense vote, that I was too scared to do it? That's nonsense. What exactly is the TownGlum play I supposedly should have made? Tell me what you would have done in my situation.

[novice]

I have to agree, that Agnes post made no sense.

Tally as of post 444:

4 votes: Fenn (Lewwyn, novice, zakalwe, Gazglum)
3 votes: Gazglum (Agnes The Orphan, dtay, Jabbz)
2 votes: Novice (Shadeun, Fenn)
1 votes: Mattimeo (pindicator)
1 votes: Shadeun (Rowain)
1 votes: pindicator (Mattimeo)

Voting history:

Novice

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

Gazglum

dtay

dtay

Fenn

Novice

Fenn

Fenn

Mattimeo

novice

Shadeun

Fenn

Mattimeo

pindicator

[Agnes The Orphan]

Too expound on it further, these are the two lynch tallies:

Tally as of post 230:

4 votes: Goreripper (zakalwe, novice, Rowain, Mattimeo)
4 votes: Mattimeo (dtay, Lewwyn, Shadeun, Goreripper)
3 votes: Gazglum (pindicator, Agnes The Orphan, Jabbz)
2 votes: novice (Fenn, Gazglum)
If the vote is tied, nobody is lynched. So somebody had better break the tie.

Here, he doesn't vote because he wants a no-lynch:

In a perfect world, probably no-lynch,

Tally as of post 251:

5 votes: Goreripper (zakalwe, novice, Rowain, Mattimeo, Fenn)
4 votes: Mattimeo (dtay, Lewwyn, Shadeun, Goreripper)
3 votes: Gazglum (pindicator, Agnes The Orphan, Jabbz)
1 votes: Novice (Gazglum)

Here, he doesn't vote because he's afraid of putting Mattimeo in danger:

but the only way I could have tried for a no-lynch would by voting Matt and putting him in danger of anybody else switching. And the Mattwagon was stinky cheese.

But he's only putting Mattimeo in the same amount of danger as he was in in the first vote count, where Gazglum was happy to stay out of! And as he said himself:

I only ever had three votes, and was always 2 votes behind the swing. I was hitting refresh, I assure you. If I had got another vote I would have defensive voted Goreripper.

So what had changed?

[Rowain]

Rowain, what do you think about the cases on me/Gazglum/novice? You've been focused on dtay/Shadeun/Mattimeo so far if I recall.

I said before that I didn't like Gazglum day1 but his posts during the night and today so far do look like town-gaz.

I don't agree with Gazglums case on novice. I don't like Shadeuns vote on novice.

I do think the case build on you (except the one part from Lewwyn I talked about) looks good. But then I reread your day 2 from last game and there you did look very scummie too. In fact you looked as much like scum that not even claiming a power saved you. So maybe your way to post or talk does simply ring scumbells. Besides the already mentioned part from Lewwyns attack there is another point that madkes me uneasy: Both zak and Lewwyn were fast to push Gazglum up to 5 votes but are now sitting side by side with him on you.

I would prefer a dtay or Shadeun lynch but it looks like that won't happen today.

[Agnes The Orphan]

Oh my God Agnes, you suck.

At this time it looks like we'll have a no lynch, but it could still very easily have swung either way, or even onto you. With last-minute lynches being what they are, it was by no means guaranteed that you'd be able to vote Gore in time.

So it is no means guaranteed that I would be able to change my vote in a last-second deadline situation, but at the same time I am scum because I should have danced my vote to Matt and then danced it off again if someone else moved? Can you see the contradiction in these attacks?

Hang on, that was my position. You since said that you thought you could vote in time (the hitting refresh moment). It was only upon seeing that that the contradiction in your defense became painfully clear.

You're missing the point. The contradiction lies in yourself, that you couldn't make up your mind on who you wanted dead. You've since tried to retcon this to a no-lynch position, but you didn't think it through, and it doesn't make sense with your actions.

If I wanted Goreripper dead, why wouldn't I have just voted for him? Do you think it would have looked so scummy to place a defense vote, that I was too scared to do it? That's nonsense. What exactly is the TownGlum play I supposedly should have made? Tell me what you would have done in my situation.

See above.

If you wanted a no lynch, as has become your position, you should have voted Matt in those last 5 minutes, and been prepared to jump off if something happened. You didn't.

[Agnes The Orphan]

He is not playing for town. And please stop this there is progress so he isn't coached or what not. Do you know who plays on his team? There are several who might not be able to do much coaching. Not everyone is a battlehardened scummie like your alter ego .

He's not playing for anyone. He's not playing full-stop, basically.

And yeah, I think it's a point in his favor. I can only speak from my own experience of scum-threads, but even people like Azza do some. I mean, I've never really faced a situation where a noob has had no help from his scum-thread, can you imagine a composition that would make that work?

And if so, doesn't that kind of mean that your opposition to this is predicated on a rather narrow field of players being scum?

Lewwyn and zak moved from Gazglum onto Fenn.

Thanks. I thought it had been Lewwyn, but then my memory made me unclear. FFOS on him, then.

[Gazglum]

Too expound on it further, these are the two lynch tallies:

Tally as of post 230:

4 votes: Goreripper (zakalwe, novice, Rowain, Mattimeo)
4 votes: Mattimeo (dtay, Lewwyn, Shadeun, Goreripper)
3 votes: Gazglum (pindicator, Agnes The Orphan, Jabbz)
2 votes: novice (Fenn, Gazglum)
If the vote is tied, nobody is lynched. So somebody had better break the tie.

Here, he doesn't vote because he wants a no-lynch:

In a perfect world, probably no-lynch,

Agnes, you are either maliciously or wrongly misreading me. You are saying that I was trying for a no-lynch at that point, I wasn't. At that tally I wasn't thinking abotu a no-lynch, I was asking people to come join me on Novice. Right before Novice posted that tally I said,

Commogore is a seer that can catch scum. Novice wants him dead. That's why I voted Novice.

And right after:

Ok, let's not vote Doctor Matt. And Dtay, Shadeun and Lewwyn are clearly out for the count so they are dead votes.

Pindi, I'm sorry I've got your hackles up. I think you're town, and I seriously think Novice is likely scum worried about seer. Rowain, I see what you are saying about the logic of Commogore, but being bristly and contrary seems totally in character for him. If he wanted to lie, why would he make a lie so likely to get him killed?

But if it comes down to me and Gore, I'll switch to him obviously.

I said in a perfect world I would prefer a no lynch AFTER the event, because YOU asked me. I wasn't talking about it at that point, I was asking the people who were online to vote Novice. And at a deadline where I have to partially focus on my own safety, I am not going to try and play cute by voting someone I don't want to hang in the hope of tying a lynch, because this gang deadline dance like drunken wedding guests. As you said to me, yourself!

Plus Agnes, are you comfortable with the fact that your co-workers on the Anti-Glum bandwagon are a man who is clearly not reading the game and one who has been unable to play today through sickness?