[SPOILERS] Northstar of the Svartalfar v Bob the Great of the Malakim

[Northstar1989]

OK, so my Workers have begun on the next Farm in the micro-plan...




Also, Bob seems to have an impossibly large hammer-production all of a sudden:



12 hammers! That should be impossible with his food production and GNP for only 5 population!

No, I mean literally, impossible for a raw yield.

In order to have a GNP this high, he MUST be working an Incense Plantation. In order to have food production this high, he MUST be working the Rice near his capital (it is literally the only food-resource within the BFC of where I already determined he had to have settled to be able to improve the Rice from the very turn his Worker was built and still be able to work the Incense...)

That leaves him 3 citizens to produce 9 hammers and 5 food!

Now THAT is literally impossible with his starting-location: he only has 2 hills within his BFC, and even if he mined both of them he would still be left needing to produce 3 hammers and 3 food from a single tile- literally an impossible situation without bonus-resources...


The ONLY possible explanation I can think of is that he has already enacted God King, in which case his raw hammer yield is only 8. Do Civics affected the hammer-totals shown in Demographics? (IIRC they do, but LURKERS, I would very much like to confirm this again...)


If Bob just switched into God King, then his only POSSIBLE tech-patch so far would have been Agriculture --> Calendar --> Mysticism, which is nice to know...


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

It will normally be greater *inside* or outside your borders?

Inside. I'm sure you can guess why.

Do Civics affected the hammer-totals shown in Demographics?

Yes.

More generally, all hammer, culture, beaker, gold, food and so on modifiers show up in the demos. (With the exception of things that are not applied directly, such as granaries and Warrens.)

[Northstar1989]

It will normally be greater *inside* or outside your borders?

Inside. I'm sure you can guess why.

Actually I can't guess why. Why?

Do Civics affected the hammer-totals shown in Demographics?

Yes.

More generally, all hammer, culture, beaker, gold, food and so on modifiers show up in the demos. (With the exception of things that are not applied directly, such as granaries and Warrens.)

Good to know. Thanks!


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

Why?

Firstly, and most obviously, forests can't grow underneath improvements. Secondly, however, forests can't grow on tiles units are on, which will tend towards tiles within borders (I'm not sure whether or not animals are included in this). This is actually something that comes up within more marginal sets of micro decisions.

[Northstar1989]

OK, so I was ending my turn...



I had already taken a screenshot when suddenly!



This works out nicely. It means one more Plains/Forest tile I can farm under without having to cast Bloom in the long run...


Also, my capital has begun on a Warrior:



Pleasantly, Nationhood gave me an extra hammer on this Warrior. A shame, though, because I'm going to want to switch to Religion next turn while my Settler is still moving to found my second city... (I have the choice between having a turn where the capital produces 1 extra hammer, or a turn where I get the normal capital hammers AND the hammers from my second city. Guess which one makes more sense to choose...)


Also, the Demographics:



LURKERS, when does the extra hammer from Nationhood show up on Demographics? Will it show up on Bob's coming turn? (leading him to possibly make slight different decisions based on a different estimation of my tile-choices...)


Regards,
Northstar

[Qgqqqqq]

You've asked this before.

Do Civics affected the hammer-totals shown in Demographics?

Yes.

More generally, all hammer, culture, beaker, gold, food and so on modifiers show up in the demos. (With the exception of things that are not applied directly, such as granaries and Warrens.)

And yes it will show up on his turn. It won't show up on graphs, though (if he's got yours).

[Ichabod]

Is nationhood still +10% on military units? If that's the case, it won't show on demographics, as far as I understand, because only "general" hammer multiplyers are applied to demographics. I.e. BTS bureaucracy/god king, forges and the like will show, because the hammer multiplyer apply for whatever you are building in the city. But specific multiplyers, like double speed buildings, IND wonder bonus, bonuses you get on military units only (Heroic Epic, nationhood...) don't show on demos. Otherwise you'd see changes in the demos when you change what's being produced in the city, which is not the case.

So, some civics appear on the demos, some do not. It depends on what kind of bonus they give, a general one or a specific one. GK shows, nationhood doesn't.

By the way, you are not really getting a bonus hammer overall from nationhood. That's because your overflow from that warrior will get divided by 1.1 (overflow is always divided by the multiplyers you've got on that particular build), which will cut one of your overflow hammers (the only way to avoid this is if the warrior actually costs 17 hammers to build, which I'm not sure is the case, but I think it's not). Nationhood is actually a very bad civic to start the game in, it will hinder you way more often than it helps: that's because you need 10 hammers in a single turn to get a +1 hammer bonus from it (very hard to happen in early game, basically only when overflowing a food unit), while you only need 1 overflow from a military build to lose it to the rounding.

[Qgqqqqq]

So, some civics appear on the demos, some do not. It depends on what kind of bonus they give, a general one or a specific one. GK shows, nationhood doesn't.

Ah, apologies.

Does this hold for gold/beaker (as opposed to commerce) modifiers?

[Ichabod]

So, some civics appear on the demos, some do not. It depends on what kind of bonus they give, a general one or a specific one. GK shows, nationhood doesn't.

Ah, apologies.

Does this hold for gold/beaker (as opposed to commerce) modifiers?

No, gold and beakers multiplyers always show. That's how you can fluctuate your GNP demos while playing a turn, by changing the slider (well, not only due to that).

But don't take my word for it, that's how I think it works, I'm not 100% sure.

[Qgqqqqq]

Nah, makes sense. Just feels odd that they'd choose to leave out some things - I suppose it makes more sense in base. Do foodhammers stay as food and hammers, respectively?