WW37- For Whom the Bell Trolls

[novice]

Agnes did put the final vote on Fenn to avoid a no lynch, but Agnes had already argued vehemently against a no lynch, so if she let Fenn get away with tying the vote that would reflect badly upon her. Even worse if someone else ninja voted Fenn to avoid the no lynch, so that Fenn flipped scum.

You really don't think I could've avoided this? Could've pretended to miss the draw, could've held back or argued about whether or not it was the case? You said something earlier about how I was unusually willing to claim and so on - do you really think I'd be unwilling to let it no lynch?

And even more than that - there were no other active players on Gazglum, iirc. Nor any off Fenn, tbh. If I let it sit, it was quite probable one of you would've joined me for the sake of the lynch before all else. If not you then Rowain (as happened). So I could've just sat, and waited - especially given my fascist partner (Fenn) was online, so we could presumably communicate. And if I was campaigning to save him, putting my neck on the line to do so, why should I not go this final hurdle?

This also flies in the face of how to approach this situation, as a fascist. To campaign for a dead wagon, that's languished with nothing but some dead votes for a day and a half is just foolish, especially with the weight of pressure on him at that point. Why shouldn't I just join the wagon relatively easily? Or start another one, perhaps revitalize the Mattimeo push. Or a Dtay/Shadeun lurker kill - hell, Rowain was pushing them both, and it would give it activity. It also follows nicelyfrom my established distrust of the established votes, which i could use to leave the Gaz train. With Fenn, that's already 3 votes, and with all the discontent it's certainly got a good chance of succeeding.

And why not bus? I've never shown myself to be afraid of that in the past.

I think your argument fails on many levels and, honestly, I don't think your heart is even in it.

Rowain and Mattimeo were around, both seemed to be intending to vote, but neither had stated where they were leaning. So you would hold out hope that they voted Gazglum. You say you could have sat and waited, and yes, that's exactly what you did. When noone appeared to vote Gazglum, you bailed out and voted Fenn. If you hadn't someone else could have ninja voted (and Rowain, in fact, did) and left you exposed. You were clearly online so you couldn't have claimed not to see the danger of no lynch looming.

Who were you going to start a wagon on when you returned to find Fenn still on the block? There were only a couple other players around (see above), so you couldn't have started a new wagon from scratch. Hence you were stuck arguing that Gazglum had to be scum after all.

And why not bus? There are probably only two fascists, at most three. In my experience scum don't bus lightly in those circumstances.

[zakalwe]

I think you might try to save him, and if that looked like it would fail, go for the last minute towncred instead. Best of both worlds. A solid claim would be a more persuasive defense.

Do you think Novice is a fascist? Presumably not. Then who?

[novice]

I think your argument fails on many levels and, honestly, I don't think your heart is even in it.

To expand on this, I feel like you didn't want to argue this. That you expected that someone else would have to have by this point, and that its one of the easy arguments you can make from yesterday, but you don't actually believe it. I get a very "going-through-the-motions" feel from your posts.

novice

I think what you mean is OMGUS.

I'm not convinced you're scum, but I absolutely believe the case has merits. If that means my heart is not in it, so be it.

[Gazglum]

Given the lack of any nightkill information and the general low activity levels, I think that a 24 hour day is a good idea. I vote yes. I also agree that no-lynching is going to be a bad idea.

Agnes, you're parrying Novice's attacks, but you haven't mentioned anything about how Fenn's flip has changed your own read on the game. Am I still your chief suspect? How does that work, if so? If I'm not, then who is?

To give my own list of reads at this point:

Lewwyn - simmer-level Lewwyn, but yet to see him on the boil
Novice - early wobbles, then an energetic performance. 7/10.
Dtay - the man who was nowhere
Jabbz - early enthusiasm, then a collapse. Debilitating illness, or cult recruitment?
SHadeun - unable to find a hint of an opinion on Fenn, despite calling out most other players
Mattimeo - feels like he's playing for a team of 1, as usual. Refusing to make votes that count.
Pindicator - earnest case-making, but surprising lack of awareness into the Mattimeo Way
Zak - so laid back as to be horizontal
Agnes - blathering and tunnelled
Rowain - pissed at the trolling bell, he's trying to soothe his anger with lurker lynches

I think Shadeun is a plausible Fenn-buddy. Possibly Agnes. But of everyone, I think Rowain comes off yesterday far the worst. I think its pretty surprising nobody else voted him yet. His logic about no-lynching makes no sense, and only turned up once Fenn was on the block. And although he was advocating voting lurker-types, he didn't want to vote Fenn who had less contributions than Shadeun, and defended it by saying that 'Fenn -is- scummy, but maybe that's just his town game'.

If he thinks that there are multiple scum factions, (now looking highly plausible), then surely the village should either try and eradicate one completely to cut down on night shennanigans, or try to lynch one then the other until we actually win. I get both those arguments. But trying to keep the sacred balance by no-lynching makes no sense. We get no information out of it, and we're no closer to a victory.

Also Rowain was arguing for multi-scum from the start of Day 2, despite no night kills, and the only confirmed faction being a singleton neutral:

I wondered why Gore always appealed to scum and never tried to get town-support. I can only guess that he knew that scum outvotes town in this game ( MJW-game revisited). In light of that I award those that voiced severe discontent about the Gore-lynch some scum-points.
That we had no kill last night can have several reasons One possibility is that scum doesn't have a NK-ability or (like the abilities in NH's(?) game) the NK doesn't work.

The tally which is nearly the same as it was 23 hours ago is another sign that we have more than 2 factions. Based on the end of D1 post I would wager 3 factions but I don't know if the cult is part of it or something new.

So we have multi-faction because it is a slow Day 2? Last game had a slow and lazy Day 2 as well, and Rowain wasn't talking multi-faction then. Goreripper 'knows'? I don't buy that Goreripper would have had access to scum number information, he hadn't even taken a night action yet. I think Rowain is speculating because he is scum himself, and he judges his team isn't powerful enough to be the only ones.

And now today Rowain is down in the dumps, and i'm sorry about that. But if he wants to call the game, I presume its because he thinks he can't win. And if he thinks he can't win I imagine its because he thinks that this is coming down to a numbers game, and other factions are going to be able to outvote him. But why would he feel that unless he had lost a teammate?

Rowain.

[novice]

I vote no to shorter days. One day is just not enough to have a conversation across time zones. We'll just have to live with the slow periods. Also shorter days will give us even less information per game day from the lurkers.

I like your Rowain case, Gazglum, with a few reservations. I'll let Rowain respond first, though.

[Rowain]

@Gazglum

Had I wanted to lynch you I would neither have talked about you being more like town-gaz on D2 nor would I have waited till the last second to vote you.

But we don't have multiscum because of the slowday 2. We have multiscum because we had had a very slowday and a neutral player who claimed a bazillion ton of powers and never ever appealed to town but only to scum. A play that makes only sense if he believes that scum can save him from the gallows.

[Gazglum]

@Gazglum

Had I wanted to lynch you I would neither have talked about you being more like town-gaz on D2 nor would I have waited till the last second to vote you.

But we don't have multiscum because of the slowday 2. We have multiscum because we had had a very slowday and a neutral player who claimed a bazillion ton of powers and never ever appealed to town but only to scum. A play that makes only sense if he believes that scum can save him from the gallows.

I never said you wanted to lynch me, I think you wanted NOT to lynch Fenn. It's not like you to misread a post.

And Goreripper hadn't had a chance to use his powers yet, unless they were day powers which is very unusual for us, even in a role madness game. Your argument only works if Goreripper was basically given a fact sheet at the beginning of the game saying 'you are neutral, there are X other factions', which is possible, but I just don't find it that likely.

But that's not really the main thrust of the case anyway. You're countering me on the margins and ignoring the fact that you voted to save Fenn for a stated reason that I just don't understand.

[Rowain]

I never said you wanted to lynch me, I think you wanted NOT to lynch Fenn. It's not like you to misread a post.

And Goreripper hadn't had a chance to use his powers yet, unless they were day powers which is very unusual for us, even in a role madness game. Your argument only works if Goreripper was basically given a fact sheet at the beginning of the game saying 'you are neutral, there are X other factions', which is possible, but I just don't find it that likely.

But that's not really the main thrust of the case anyway. You're countering me on the margins and ignoring the fact that you voted to save Fenn for a stated reason that I just don't understand.

Gaz I said I did want a no-lynch which does include not lynching you. And of course it also includes not lynching Fenn.
Had I solely wanted to avoid a Fenn-lynch I could have easily voted you anytime during the day.

And yes I'm convinced that Gore had knowledge of the setup. Why else would he act like he did.

BTW what on my reason don't you understand?

[Shadeun]

I never said you wanted to lynch me, I think you wanted NOT to lynch Fenn. It's not like you to misread a post.

And Goreripper hadn't had a chance to use his powers yet, unless they were day powers which is very unusual for us, even in a role madness game. Your argument only works if Goreripper was basically given a fact sheet at the beginning of the game saying 'you are neutral, there are X other factions', which is possible, but I just don't find it that likely.

But that's not really the main thrust of the case anyway. You're countering me on the margins and ignoring the fact that you voted to save Fenn for a stated reason that I just don't understand.

Gaz I said I did want a no-lynch which does include not lynching you. And of course it also includes not lynching Fenn.
Had I solely wanted to avoid a Fenn-lynch I could have easily voted you anytime during the day.

And yes I'm convinced that Gore had knowledge of the setup. Why else would he act like he did.

BTW what on my reason don't you understand?

You could have changed at any point during the day to Gaz. But clearly the obvious strategy to avoid a Fenn lynch was the last minute switch.

Which is exactly what you did.

While I still think Gaz/Novice seem to be getting more and more chummy (strange that) I still think your last minute switch was pretty transparent.

That being said, I do feel conflicted about the objective of the game. Maybe we are meant to embrace scum? The poems meaning is pretty obvious.

Still, unless we get more people coming together on that idea...

I am going to use Occam's Razor and maintain that you, Rowain, are fascist scum.

[Gazglum]

Pindicator, Jabbz, Mattimeo, Shadeun, Dtay, you really have nothing to say today?

Gaz I said I did want a no-lynch which does include not lynching you. And of course it also includes not lynching Fenn.
Had I solely wanted to avoid a Fenn-lynch I could have easily voted you anytime during the day.

Well, maybe, maybe not. First thing that happened yesterday was that I got 5 votes, and you said

I didn't like Gaz game on D1 but I do like his posts during the night. I do see villager Gaz there. That he rose to 5 votes so quickly makes me wonder.
From those on him I like dtay the least.

So you're publicly giving me a town lean and investigating my attackers. Which is good scum play, because you know that bandwagons that large, that early in the day, rarely make it through to the lynch.

Next mention of me:

It is strange I can see your reasoning part1 and 2 , I can see novice reasoning to vote Fenn and I can see Gazglum's reasoning but I don't really like your attack part 3.

So mildly pro-Gaz again.

Admitedly when it reached Fenn 4/Gaz 3 you could have moved to me. But you had already given me Day 2 town leans, so to vote for me then would have been quite a backtrack. I would have questioned you on it, for sure. In other words, by the time it became clear you might need to vote to save Fenn, it was a two horse race between him and me, and it would have looked pretty shady for you to vote me. Basically impossible, I would say. So instead you pushed for Shadeun or Dtay until the last minute, then switched to help Fenn.

As to the other points, Gore could have acted as he did just to troll people? Or in spite because he thought the village were stupidly lynching him? But maybe you're right, neither of us know what his role powers were. I don't think its very important.

And I don't understand your reasons at all. We know there are scum in the game. Its weird they haven't killed anyone yet, but maybe they are getting bad luck on blocks, or maybe they are recruiting instead. Either way, what happens if we don't lynch someone? Best case scenario, nothing happens, we get no information. More likely, someone gets killed or converted, and we get no information.

I mean, how does the village win in your scenario?

The only reason I can see for no lynch is because you thought Fenn and me were town. Taht would be reasonable. But you weren't giving Fenn a town lean, probably because he was playing scummy enough that it would have been absurd to say that. What you did say to Shadeun was:

Scum wins easiest if they are allowed to shut up and lurk in the shadows while town kills itself.

Which describes Fenn (2nd bottom in posts) very well. So I don't understand why you would want to save him. Without even ask him to claim before making a decision.

You fight honourably and well Rowain, but your position is untenable sir.