out of the loop Q vs OldLion

[Old_Lion]

Hi there

I'm only in 3 games currntly, so I started a new one with Q.

This one is not in the tournament, so anybody can read and comment.

As my opponents have noticed, I'm not good at starting games.
I need some help to become at least decent in the first stage of the game :
placing citys, building sequence, tech path.

So please help.

I'm varn Gossam. Q plays Arendal Phaedra
mirror, small, just us, Always war, Blessings of Amatheon, All Unique, Monarch difficulty, small lakes

here is the starting position :

[Kragroth]

Can you post your starting position showing all the hammers, food, and commerce? That will help me advise you.

Thanks

[Mardoc]

On top of the screenshot Kragroth wants, what I think you really need is to post your thoughts on what you should do. The important thing is knowing why you're doing what you're doing, not just making moves. It'll help us know what to talk about, too. I'd feel silly writing a long argument for something that you already agree with.

Also, don't do anything we suggest without understanding why we suggest it. I'll try to include my reasoning on anything I recommend, but I may go too fast and skip something. Or I might misunderstand the situation, in which case I'd be simply wrong.


First thoughts: you don't want much jungle in your capital, since you can't use those tiles until Bronze Working. You also don't want to found a city on desert, -25% defense hurts, particularly in a duel. Which means you'll want to head northish, away from the Jungle and toward whatever is nice.

One option is the plains hill 1N of your settler. Plains hills give an extra hammer to the city tile, which is handy in any city, but especially nice in a capital - plains hill city tile often saves a turn or two on your first vital worker. Plus hill defense is also always handy.

The other reasonable option is something with the fog. If there's grassland or especially floodplains along either of those rivers, that could work. You probably want to scout north (or NE or NW) with the warrior and maybe also with the settler. There may be a better option than the plains hill, but not with what you currently see. Don't wander too far, though, it's generally a mistake to spend much time before founding your city. And the plains hill is a pretty good city as it is.

I'd be thinking about gold for a second city, not a capital, because it's a long time before you can have Mining without sacrificing food techs. Plus, early game you care more about food and hammers for expansion than you do about commerce. You're likely to get to Mining about the time you're ready to build a settler.

As Malakim, I think you start with Agriculture? Which means you'll want Calendar first, Agrarianism is just that good. You'll want farms on the corn, floodplains, and the two grassland for sure, which means you won't have to worry about other sources of food. Unfortunately you can't use the Sugar anytime soon because of that jungle. If I remember wrong and you don't have Agri - then you want it first, followed by Calendar.

Also, you will want to build a worker first. Q did not choose a rush civ (Doviello or Svartalfar). Any other civ will give you time to build a warrior before they can kill you even with worker first. And barbs will start with animals, which stay out of your borders. Worker first is almost always the right choice, exceptions are few and far between. This is because improved tiles are worth about double what unimproved tiles are worth (once you subtract the food and commerce it takes to sustain a citizen to work them).

Anyway, don't take any of that as orders, but just the way I think.

[Kragroth]

Malakim start with Ancient Chants which means that you want to get Agriculture right away. The question is the tech after Agriculture.

It'd be nice to have a source of Commerce available with Calendar but unfortunately the sugar isn't available until bronzeworking and it provides poor commerce.

We probably want two settlers, one for the gold and another for the gems which inclines us to beeline bronze working which is also important for attack and defense in a duel.

Alternatives would be to go agriculture then education or agriculture then mysticism but that would put us behind economically and defensively. Unfortunately starting with Ancient Chants doesn't do us much good, but such is the game.

Queation is whether we go agriculture then calendar then crafting then mining then bronze working or skip calendar in that sequence

[Bobchillingworth]

I would settle on the plains hill 1N for the extra capital hammer and ability to work the 3 food, 2 commerce FP tile right off the bat. I would first research Agriculture and then Calendar as Mardoc suggests. Then Myst so you can revolt into Godking- that forested plains hill will be worth about 5 hammers, which will be great for working on your first settler. After that maybe Education to replace some of the riverside farms with cottages, and then Mining followed by Bronze Working. You could also do Mining before Education, if your first expansion will be at the gold site.


I would build a desert shrine afte the first settler- it will provide +1 happy if you're in Religion, and you can use that extra population point to work a priest, for a Great Prophet who can 1-turn bulb the Runes religion once you have both Myst and Mining.

[Kragroth]

I think 2N is better longterm. you get access to more beneficial tiles in the longterm and with a unique improvement you already get a boost to happiness so the bonus to health from being next to a river resource will be to your advantage so that you can benefit from the happiness. I think when mining cones online you'll prefer the 4 hammer hill to the plains.

Mysticism directly after calendar is an interesting idea. I'm thinking though if the calendar tech immediately is worth it. I guess the net benefit of calendar is greater than mysticism at its outset.

I generally prefer great sages because they can grant an academy which stacks with capitol commerce and the extra desert commerce. If I were to get a Great Priest I'd prefer to spend it on Tablets of bambur for the great engineer or on Arete if there is copper around.

[Mardoc]

It probably is better long term. But the short term matters quite a bit. If the capital starts quickly enough, and makes a lot of settlers, then you don't really mind if it ends up slightly worse in the long term, because you have all these other nice cities.

Edit: Still, this is in the realm of arguable and probably. Not obviously.

[Kragroth]

Hey Old Lion. Can you email me the initial save or get Q to email it to me? I'd like to test out some of these opening theories. This could really benefit us all.

[The Black Sword]

Plains hill 1N seems best to me. I'm not sure why 2N is better long term, you still get the Standing Stones happy for being in the second ring right?

Agri -> Calendar and worker first is pretty safe as Mardoc outlined.

Growing to size 2 + Ancient Chants could be better though. Revolt to GK and build a worker at size 2; 10 f/hpt working plains hill forest and flood plains. Depends if the techs are cheap enough so you can get everything in time.

[Aurorarcher]

I'd go for 1N as well, always nice to get that +1 hammer from the city tile. Another option could be the spot where your warrior is, so 2N1W from the settler. It slows your start a bit (no flooplains and extra hammer from hill) but in long run it could be better. 1N still seem better as you won't get mining that early to get the benfit from gold mine. Also it looks like north is tundra area. Standing Stones gives happy in "nearby cities" according to civilopedia, guess we would need to know what nearby means here, with some other unique features "nearby" means it is within 3 tiles (inside borders of course).