[Spoilers] Ceterum Peter censet Carthaginem fore triumphatrix - Adrien + Miguelito

[AdrienIer]

I'll be back from the football game in just over an hour, I'll answer in detail then

[Miguelito]

alright, enjoy your game
btw you guys have public entertainment on Good Friday?

[Dreylin]

I'd argue for letting the first turns of the war play out and see what it looks like. If we have 2Iron connected by then, he's going to come asking. Then we can see if he's willing to pay a bit or if we think he'll fold too easily without it.

[AdrienIer]

Well the Red Star didn't win, but still leads the third division.
We do have public entertainment on good Friday, just like any other Friday of the year. I didn't realize until very recently that Germany was a very religious based country (with stuff like taxes based on your religion for example), here the only reason I remember that good Friday is a thing is that I was born on one. But I don't think I count as public entertainment
And all countries that usually have football games on Friday nights had them today, Spain Portugal Switzerland Belgium and Scotland at least.

About the game :

THH has used up one trait now. Cre won't do much from now on, although I won't complain if he wants to build pavilions and colosseums instead of knights. Org shines right now, when he's building cheap courthouses lighthouses and the civic upkeep rises. Part of the awesomness of China is their starting techs, so here as well he's used part of his benefits. CKN are still nice of course.

Mardoc has used ind, but either hasn't built forges or has a production so ridiculous that he remains last in that category with their help. Exp is not very useful any more, and I don't think he'll build any harbor so until the end game where health is an issue he's got pretty much no trait. OTOH his Ziggurats are helping him tremendously.

AlHazard has org just like THH and exp like Mardoc. Egypt's power is long gone. Still needs GAs to use the MoM. His chances are getting lower with each passing turn.

THH's prospect is in conquering a neighbor with his current lead. We're not far behind him and Mardoc's colossus is maintaining him in the tech game. He's apparently dedicated to attacking someone, or he wouldn't be whipping knights. But what good would attacking Mardoc do ? Mardoc has only 3 cities on the mainland, so while it would take Mardoc out as a competition for the final victory he's making himself a bitter enemy for the gain of 3 cities. Therefore I think he's going for astronomy. I may be wrong but I can really see how with astro he'll take over Mardoc's land entirely and get a winning position. Mardoc can't fight in the sea because astro obsoletes the colossus. You can come back and laugh at me in 50t if I was wrong.

Mardoc's only chance is therefore to fight on land, so to counter THH's knights. He needs engineering, and he needs it 5 turns ago. Our only chance is for Mardoc to fight THH just enough for the both of them to be slowed down. My idea is to send a scouting unit (the closest to the spot) right on top of Mardoc's iron tile. He can take it as a warning if he wants to, or THH can see it as a message. But the main reason is to see what's going on in the area.

At this very moment I want THH to attack Mardoc, because if he doesn't (like if Mardoc suddenly shows him 3 pikes) he could turn his attention on our poorly defended cities. So we wait for a turn or two, we connect our second iron ASAP and if THH does attack Mardoc we intervene : sending iron is a possibility (in exchange for part of his income of course, unless he's really dying), but so is a direct attack with muskets if THH's backlines are vulnerable. I don't think that'll happen though.

BTW we need economics right after our cuirassiers are available, any bonus to our trade routes is valuable so Free Market FTW !

[Miguelito]

Well the Red Star didn't win, but still leads the third division.
We do have public entertainment on good Friday, just like any other Friday of the year. I didn't realize until very recently that Germany was a very religious based country (with stuff like taxes based on your religion for example), here the only reason I remember that good Friday is a thing is that I was born on one. But I don't think I count as public entertainment
And all countries that usually have football games on Friday nights had them today, Spain Portugal Switzerland Belgium and Scotland at least.

actually I live in one of the few regions in the world (to my knowledge) where far more than half the population doesn't profess any religion. But yes, the churches are quite mixed up with the state. We're even still paying them indemnization for expropiating their lands in 1805 . So I assume you don't follow German football (we would have had games on a normal Friday, but today not)? As a loose Dortmund follower, tomorrow will be full of drama...

About the game :

THH has used up one trait now. Cre won't do much from now on, although I won't complain if he wants to build pavilions and colosseums instead of knights. Org shines right now, when he's building cheap courthouses lighthouses and the civic upkeep rises. Part of the awesomness of China is their starting techs, so here as well he's used part of his benefits. CKN are still nice of course.

Mardoc has used ind, but either hasn't built forges or has a production so ridiculous that he remains last in that category with their help. Exp is not very useful any more, and I don't think he'll build any harbor so until the end game where health is an issue he's got pretty much no trait. OTOH his Ziggurats are helping him tremendously.

AlHazard has org just like THH and exp like Mardoc. Egypt's power is long gone. Still needs GAs to use the MoM. His chances are getting lower with each passing turn.

THH's prospect is in conquering a neighbor with his current lead. We're not far behind him and Mardoc's colossus is maintaining him in the tech game. He's apparently dedicated to attacking someone, or he wouldn't be whipping knights. But what good would attacking Mardoc do ? Mardoc has only 3 cities on the mainland, so while it would take Mardoc out as a competition for the final victory he's making himself a bitter enemy for the gain of 3 cities. Therefore I think he's going for astronomy. I may be wrong but I can really see how with astro he'll take over Mardoc's land entirely and get a winning position. Mardoc can't fight in the sea because astro obsoletes the colossus. You can come back and laugh at me in 50t if I was wrong.

Interesting thoughts. Some remarks from my side:
- THH's Cre looks useful to me for city conquest, also without it we would start to seriously culture crush him now we're getting universities. I also think he has leveraged cheap libraries quite well, similar to our Cothons. CKNs can still have a very siginificant impact, although right now THH seems to prioritize knights
- I think I did see at least one forge of Mardoc's. But yes, his MfG is strangely low (and even going down precisely now when THH's army's incoming)
- Al's strongest units are still his WCs :P (ok I think I've seen a cat as well). Also, if he needs GPs for GAs the Obelisk priest slots could be actually useful. He has lots of courthouses, but still bad GNP. Otoh, the MfG is remarkable (I'm curious as to where we stand in that figure post GA)
- Making a similar analysis for us, Exp has been shining a lot, and we still have got one granary to chop in on founding the iron city, but after that all the Exp buildings will be built. Of course, should we aquire additional cities out of borders , it will still be useful to get them running and profitable quickly. PHI has been shining lately, enabling our GA post-academy, the edu bulb and still with another GP ready (I think while we have birthed 4 - all GS - everybody else got 2-1 only). Combined with Representation it's very nice. We've got our universities and Oxford still incoming soon, so just getting the major boost from the trait, which I think however will remain useful until the late game. Carthage's numids are what we've got for cavalry still for some time. Of course they are bad facing knights, but still they could open some opportunities (see above). The Cothons are all built (the last one the past turn) and are contributing a good part to our economy I suppose.

Mardoc's only chance is therefore to fight on land, so to counter THH's knights. He needs engineering, and he needs it 5 turns ago. Our only chance is for Mardoc to fight THH just enough for the both of them to be slowed down. My idea is to send a scouting unit (the closest to the spot) right on top of Mardoc's iron tile. He can take it as a warning if he wants to, or THH can see it as a message. But the main reason is to see what's going on in the area.

I'm pretty sure that Mardoc researched a major tech with his final GA GNP spike, and I think that should be either Guilds or Engineering. Both could enable him to hold against THH, although he will definitely be troubled by just having a lot less production/whip centers. But he needs iron for that, and it's very much in our interest he has it. We really don't need ours.
A chariot is on the way to the anticipated battlefield. I'll leave it on the iron. We also got a warrior on the THH side to monitor his setting up the attack

At this very moment I want THH to attack Mardoc,

100% agree

because if he doesn't (like if Mardoc suddenly shows him 3 pikes) he could turn his attention on our poorly defended cities. So we wait for a turn or two, we connect our second iron ASAP and if THH does attack Mardoc we intervene : sending iron is a possibility (in exchange for part of his income of course, unless he's really dying), but so is a direct attack with muskets if THH's backlines are vulnerable. I don't think that'll happen though.

I also agree that we should wait for the war declaration before taking any action, like spoiling THH's assumed plan to disconnect that iron. Turn order also lets us send the deal to Mardoc instantly after THH has occupied the tile.

BTW we need economics right after our cuirassiers are available, any bonus to our trade routes is valuable so Free Market FTW !

Yep, I would also very much like that, there's just one problem: Economics needs Banking and Banking needs Guilds, so all the techs we've skipped. We definitely want it soon after military tradition, because I don't think we want to stay without an economic civic until SP (which doesn't really suit us either) and Banking is also needed for RP... but I imagine that Printing Press would give the bigger instant economic bonus. After that, we'll have to do major tech catch-up (or go for Astro )

[AdrienIer]

actually I live in one of the few regions in the world (to my knowledge) where far more than half the population doesn't profess any religion. But yes, the churches are quite mixed up with the state. We're even still paying them indemnization for expropiating their lands in 1805 . So I assume you don't follow German football (we would have had games on a normal Friday, but today not)? As a loose Dortmund follower, tomorrow will be full of drama...

Most of urban France is non-religious, but I was thinking about state level : here the state is non-religious on principle since 1905, while religion is still very present in the German state/laws/customs (which is true of many other countries). I forgot about the German game on friday night. I'll have to miss Dortmund-Munich tomorrow, I'll only have time for Arsenal-Liverpool during the afternoon.

Interesting thoughts. Some remarks from my side:
- THH's Cre looks useful to me for city conquest, also without it we would start to seriously culture crush him now we're getting universities. I also think he has leveraged cheap libraries quite well, similar to our Cothons. CKNs can still have a very siginificant impact, although right now THH seems to prioritize knights
- I think I did see at least one forge of Mardoc's. But yes, his MfG is strangely low (and even going down precisely now when THH's army's incoming)
- Al's strongest units are still his WCs :P (ok I think I've seen a cat as well). Also, if he needs GPs for GAs the Obelisk priest slots could be actually useful. He has lots of courthouses, but still bad GNP. Otoh, the MfG is remarkable (I'm curious as to where we stand in that figure post GA)
- Making a similar analysis for us, Exp has been shining a lot, and we still have got one granary to chop in on founding the iron city, but after that all the Exp buildings will be built. Of course, should we aquire additional cities out of borders , it will still be useful to get them running and profitable quickly. PHI has been shining lately, enabling our GA post-academy, the edu bulb and still with another GP ready (I think while we have birthed 4 - all GS - everybody else got 2-1 only). Combined with Representation it's very nice. We've got our universities and Oxford still incoming soon, so just getting the major boost from the trait, which I think however will remain useful until the late game. Carthage's numids are what we've got for cavalry still for some time. Of course they are bad facing knights, but still they could open some opportunities (see above). The Cothons are all built (the last one the past turn) and are contributing a good part to our economy I suppose.

Our Cothons are our economy, our game is built upon them. Cheaper oxford will be our last big boost from civ/leaders, getting GPs will be about as costly for us as for our opponents due to the rise in GPP needed to get them, we'll get more from the GPP bonus in the late game.

I'm pretty sure that Mardoc researched a major tech with his final GA GNP spike, and I think that should be either Guilds or Engineering. Both could enable him to hold against THH, although he will definitely be troubled by just having a lot less production/whip centers. But he needs iron for that, and it's very much in our interest he has it. We really don't need ours.
A chariot is on the way to the anticipated battlefield. I'll leave it on the iron. We also got a warrior on the THH side to monitor his setting up the attack

Please let him still look tastier than us to THH

Yep, I would also very much like that, there's just one problem: Economics needs Banking and Banking needs Guilds, so all the techs we've skipped. We definitely want it soon after military tradition, because I don't think we want to stay without an economic civic until SP (which doesn't really suit us either) and Banking is also needed for RP... but I imagine that Printing Press would give the bigger instant economic bonus. After that, we'll have to do major tech catch-up (or go for Astro )

Argh you're right I forgot about banking... That's a huge delay, but I guess we can't avoid it.

[Miguelito]

He's massing his knights at Chiron Stigmata. That threatens to attack Hulk or Kiwi (although the tile 1w of the city would be more threatening)
- 7 of them could be in range of Hulk next turn (but if he wanted that, he'd probably done it this turn)
- 6 + the ckn + whatever he produces in the meantime can get in range of Kiwi in 2 turns
- he's got two chariots scouting us at TOS and Kiwi, so probably seeing it all. But alright, scouting is still more valuable to us

Defense:
- Our cavalry - 5 numids + 1 chariot - is staging 1W of TOS, where they can get into either of the border cities withing 1 turn.
- 2 spears in Hulk ready (1 promoted), another 1 next turn, 1 finished in Barrow, arrives in 2t; also going to whip one in Emerald next turn. The rest of the garrison is 2 axes + 1cat
- at Kiwi the garrison is 2 spears, 3 axes (one of them C3), and 1 chariot. I'm debating whether it's best next turn to build a spear, walls in case we see THH attacking there, or a barracks (for promoted muskets, definitely not happening if he attacks there)
- We'll have 3 fresh cats in TOS next turn. If we're unclear as to where he'll attack, we sadly will have to split them, to have 2 at each of Kiwi and Hulk (or am I wrong on that?)

As you may have read from above, I accepted te fact that some universities have to be delayed a little for our survival

I also saw 2 fresh knights in Mardoc's territory (couldn't look into Schroedinger, there might be one there as well)

IMPORTANT:
1 more turn of research for Gunpowder. Can anybody explain to me how a queue upgrade works, and if there is a possibility to set up one with a musket (are there units that upgrade to muskets? Archer maybe?)

[Commodore]

IMPORTANT:
1 more turn of research for Gunpowder. Can anybody explain to me how a queue upgrade works, and if there is a possibility to set up one with a musket (are there units that upgrade to muskets? Archer maybe?)

If a unit gets obsoleted by the tech, it upgrades. So maces auto-upgrade in queue when Rifling and MilSci complete.

Sadly, nothing upgrades to muskets.

[Miguelito]

Thanks. But if the unit finishes the turn the tech gets researched, it still gets built, right? So I have to set up the hammers in a way the unit stays just below finishing?
Sad thing it won't work here, but I hope we see the day where we can use it for Cuirs

[Commodore]

Thanks. But if the unit finishes the turn the tech gets researched, it still gets built, right? So I have to set up the hammers in a way the unit stays just below finishing?
Sad thing it won't work here, but I hope we see the day where we can use it for Cuirs

If you have enough hammers, it's the upgrade that gets built.