WW38: The Story of the Stories

[zakalwe]

I was thinking your vote could have been parked on Gazglum as insurance, for a very noncommittal reason. But strike that, then.

In any case, you originally moved off Molach like this:

You're right about Gazglum's silence, my Moses vote isn't going anywhere with his claim being a joke.

Gazglum

Then later...

Now to an actual attack, I dislike Molach's game. His attack on me is kinda consistent (a few posts before he says he'll go take a closer look at those voting for him, I was part of them) but his first post is contradictory

Third paragraph: Always fun when people keep making joke votes one day in... like Jowy here on Bob. You a scum trying to do the normal thing, lay a joke vote to fit in? Joke votes only first 16 hours, everyone knows this.

Fifth paragraph: I'll now reveal my power. I am immune. Immune to lynching, immune to nightkills. Generally immune. For what GM would be responsible for burning the Book frem whence my character came?

So joke votes are not ok at this stage of the game but joking about your power is ? If we're out of the joke phase and into the real discussions phase why make a joke like that ? As a one time power it could be a real thing.

Call me opportunistic but in the very quick reread I just did this popped as bad.

IIRC, that argument about the third and fifth paragraphs was recycled from someone else, and you originally moved off Molach because his claim was a joke.

And I don't think that was a great argument to begin with. If we're accepting that the fifth paragraph was a joke, doesn't it make sense to also parse the third paragraph as a joke? A fairly straightforward "do as I say don't do as I do" joke. IMO, it's a constructed contradiction.

[Bobchillingworth]

For all we know anyone is a wolf.


Molach being scum seems pretty unlikely though. Granted I think two scum on the block on D1 has happened before here in standard setups, but you'd think with presumably 4 players they'd have enough manpower and agency to move the dial toward a third candidate to try to attract a couple villagers to jump in. Being D1 Gazglum didn't have much dirt on him either, so he'd have been worth trying to save (as opposed to someone expected to simply hang the next day if spared at the last second).

[Gazglum]

Come, come, my friends. There is no reason why, in an essentially inconvenient relationship, we should not adopt an attitude of camaraderie. Simply lay down your arms and promise no more lynchings, and in return my fellow schemers shall not harm a hair on your heads. Our word is our bond.

Good luck everyone, and sorry I can continue no further with you!

[Molach]

* Thou shalt not lie *

I said in the course of last day that I should compare town/scum AdrienIer with his play last day. And in view of the above, I better do so. Now.

He's never been scum.
In WW 36 he certainly did not jump onto wagons for pressure like this game. He was generally first or second to make a vote for a guy, in two cases voting for people voting for him. Towards the end of day 1 he ended up on a wagon, which ended in the lynching of scum mattimeo. But everyone who can should end up on a wagon if they aren't already on one - "x or y is going to hang, vote for the one find scummiest rather than be useless and vote for z"

In WW 35 he follows other people's votes more. I could say that WW 35 with the ditched power roles lying in the open was different than a no-info day 1 - it was sound town-play to pressure those with powerful discarded roles into a claim which might damn them. This game - anyone pressured could probably thruthfully claim his role, minus faction nightkill and wolftopic communication, and we'd still know nothing.

Oh and I agree with AdrienIer that he is a revenge-voter, he did that WW 36. I was voting for him most of the day, which may have led him to vote me over Gaz, if he is uninformed town. Still a greater-than baseline chance that he is scum and had another motivation for voting for me.
--

Anyway, AdrienIer is right, both I and the Gaz could be scumbuddies, and our scumteam stood ready to gain huge cred by lynching one wolf today. However I'll write a bit what I think with my 20-20 insight in my alignment - feel free to look back here after my alignment is known.

The book of Gazglum:
Gaz.280.1

"Im phoning it in. too. Meiz, I have no other strong suspects. Krill refuses to engage but it fits his.civ persona. Off top of my head, novice is a bit laissez faire, shadeun going hot and cold on whether to use influence to guide his vote, and feels like bob has slid back to the shadows after entertaining first day. But I wouldnt vote any of them over molach. Adrien I think is top poster, in. his fVour."

Posted 1.5 hours before deadline. "Would not vote them over Molach". My "scumbuddy" locking his vote in. Smart? Also defends Adrien.

Gaz.307.2

Molach has made one attack, on adrien , which he immidately hedged ying spmethibg like 'maybe thats just how he plays'. Now he lurks the deadline away.

0.5 hours before deadline. Still locked in. Fenn was a potential candidate now.

The book of Fenn:
Fenn was the first person to receive a vote this game. He sat for a long while with two votes, from Zakalwe and Shadeun. He was voting for Meiz. Meanwhile the battle between God* and Evil** was raging furiously. Then...

Fenn.319.1-4

Awake, read through the 130+ posts since I was last here. Apologies for the late entry.

Still don't like Meiz, feel like he only started voting and somewhat contributing because of the votes on him - perhaps that's unfair coming from me, but there it is. The points he did make were imo rather weak. Apparently nobody wants to vote him anymore, but I don't see him as much less scummy than before.

Really don't see how Molach's jokes are scummy. His lack of content after that raises my eyebrows, but the invincibility claim - no.

Between Molach and Gazglum would rather lynch Gazglum today.

This is 6 minutes before lynch. He has a prime suspect, but takes a pick between the two on the block. He plays like a town here, you might be in doubt but shirking from your duty will only give scum more % influence. I also think Fenn would not be noticed if he had stayed silent 6 minutes more. His high-influence vote helps seal the deal.

He also had a perfectly good reason to vote me here, just change "Really don't see how Molach's jokes are scummy. His lack of content after that raises my eyebrows," into "Really don't see how Molach's jokes are scummy, but his lack of content after that raises my eyebrows" and he can vote me.

Lewwyn:
Strong town. The delayed vote for Gaz is reasonably explained - Lewwyn not just making sure he gets his vote right, also wants to scumhunt while doing it.

Rowain, Goreripper:
Quite likely town, they voted Gaz after Ichabod's post - very early before it was obvious Gaz would be in danger, but stuck with it. If one of these are scum who wanted to test the waters, this play would have high chance of resulting in unforeseen loss of scumbuddy.

Ichabod:
Town. Ich.293.1-4

Had a bunch of quotes, but they don't really make that much sense, now that I look at them again. What I wanted to say is that gazglum is playing too much dopey, when he's usually not a dope. He made some very weak points when talking about Molach's post, which let me be honest, was an obvious joke and a totally crafted RP post, that I can't really believe people didn't notice... It's Molach, he's always joking and with very good jokes and he just did another good one and no one gets it...

And, seriously, I'd vote Shadeun a hundred times before voting for Molach. I'd vote for Adrien too before voting for Molach. And Gazglum and even Fenn too, because I don't like people that go "I vote this player because he hasn't talk. Oh, he talked, so I have to vote that player". No problem if you just go and do it, but pointing out you're doing it just pisses me out to no avail.

And I'm no wolf. But lynch me if you want, for all I care you are just beind stupid and losing. Not that it surprises me, really.

And Shadeun getting all offended and annoyed... And trying to say that I said a bunch of stuff that I didnt... Not that I wouldn't expect it

I might be biased by the kind words here. But this really starts the case on Gazglum. The townies who ended up voting Gazglum over me didn't really have a lot to go on before this post. This was really the beginning of the end.

Shadeun:
Well at least he picked his preference. If he's town he would be inclined to vote to keep Gaz alive because friendship. If scum would he make his vote so obvious? And not 25 minutes earlier? He also miscalculated, I'd think scum would keep a close watch on the tally - I'd think one of them would realize, at 16:55, that Lewwyn's vote put the score was 6-4 and no point in voting. I've been in one endgame as scum where I'd refresh browser constantly, and know 100% well what the score was every 10 seconds. So I think this late, ultimately useless, friendship-affected vote tells us little about Shadeun's alignment.

* Moses
** the schemer

[Lewwyn]

Shadeun seems sentimentally defeatist here, but from my experience with him as scum buddy he's stronger and more logical than that.


Rowain I am more than happy to assign the lion share of town points to Fenn. I believe him town and more easily lynched than myself.

[Goreripper]

You seem more likely as innocent now, patriarch!

* Moses
** the schemer

But have a care in your subliminal whisperational tauntings!

[AdrienIer]

Yes Zak I changed my position the moment Molach posted (and I moved away) and the moment I had to vote for real. I reread the original message and looked for the real meaning beyond the RP. And if it's a constructed joke contradiction it was hidden too far under the RP to work IMO.

And Bob they did "move the dial towards a third candidate" : Fenn. It's not my n°1 option though, Molach's post is very good.

[zakalwe]

AdrienIer, I'm saying the argument that paragraphs 3 and 5 are contradictory seems like an attempt to construct a contradiction. You're saying that maybe Molach constructed the contradiction as a joke. I guess that way of looking at it works, too.

I'm in the process of rereading, and not currently feeling like you should be the top suspect.

Shadeun has really been objectively scummy so far.

Here, for example, is some of his constant "I need to reread" nagging:

I read Meiz's posts and didn't see much but will take a fresh view near lunch.

So he read his 8 posts, didn't see much, but still wanted to reread them once again near lunch? Keeping his options open much? And this wasn't his only mention of maybe being willing to possibly vote for Meiz if anyone more experienced could convince him that it might or might not be a good idea based on the years of experience that he lacks and that we all who know each other so much better can enlighten him with. Sorry, got a bit carried away there. But yeah, it's objectively scummy. Which doesn't make him scum, but I still think Lewwyn was being perceptive in pointing out Shadeun's scumminess. So I like that.

I also like Lewwyn's lack of opportunism with regards to his neighbor. Gazglum's main push of the day was "lynch Lewwyn's neighbor", which suggests that Lewwyn's neighbor is innocent, and Lewwyn handled that very nicely by saying that he'd consider revealing the neighbor if Gazglum could independently point out something scummy that he had done. So in short I like a lot of what Lewwyn has done. The only thing I dislike is the fishing for a late Zak wagon, which was (potentially) a display of opportunism. I think that had a decent chance to succeed, and incidentally I was offline when he made that post and would not have been able to vote in self defense (though to be fair he couldn't know that). More importantly though, there's nothing to lose in airing the idea, and very much to win, with Gazglum on the block. Still, I can imagine some town reasons for this play and I'm sure he will come up with one of them.

[Shadeun]

I think there are some good points on me and then there are Zak's points.

Why not quote what I said after review? I get small windows during work when the market is quiet but something like Meiz seemed to deserve more consideration even for day 1 (given who was asking the questions). Read his stuff, and it read scummily (as i said) but I dont know Meiz (as i said) and don't like voting on 'tone' (as I said) on day 1. So I liked Mattimeo more and liked to see those who did less on day 1 come forward.

So, as with Gazglum who I clearly misread, I just didn't get a strong enough read on Meiz to make him hang on day 1. Now clearly others are better at this (Lewwyn for one) than me. I think I wrote a whole lot and was quite deliberative (thats just how I am) but ultimately made a call on Meiz and a bad call between Molach and Gazglum based on what I was seeing.

I'm looking forward to day 2. Glad you guys helped us to a good start (despite my misplaced spoiler vote )

Meta: I think you'll just get to know my style a bit better. You guys tend to be very deliberative whereas I do just puke stuff onto the page a bit. Also, I'll get better at reading you guys

I have to make the push to Heathrow now (having slept in) so see you guys for second half of day 2.

[zakalwe]

But if it's too late in the day for joke votes, why would you follow that up with a 'joke power'? It could be that he made his immunity claim to avoid a lynch, then saw that people were talking about lynching him anyway to test it, so he retroactively called it a joke.

I think this may be the original source of the contradiction argument. And the second part of this argument was also weak, which I noted at the time. In AdrienIer's favor, scum typically recycle arguments from townies, not from scumbuddies.

For comparison, Mattimeo put a slightly different spin on it when he voted for Molach.

Molach
Claiming invincibility to everything, rapidly backing down as soon as it looked like he might actually be called on it. Even if it was a joke, it's a pretty damn poor one, given how much in this game we have to take at people's word.
The only reasoning provided for his vote on Adrien ("opportunistic") describes his own vote a lot more accurately than it does anything Adrien has done.

"It's a pretty damn poor joke" strikes me as off, coming from Mattimeo. Feels like he's pushing way too hard, there. Also repeats the "opportunistic" argument that had been going around even though Molach had defended against that earlier.

Shadeun, I didn't vote to lynch you yesterday, even though you had great momentum at one point. What does that tell you? You've been objectively scummy, but like I say, that doesn't necessarily make you scum. Have a nice trip!