Be Vewwy Vewwy Quiet! [Game 3 Session IV Mardoc v Northstar]

[Mardoc]

Hmm, apparently I took this picture yesterday but forgot to write a report.



We have options next turn. Even a 10% chance at the capital, which would end the game if he doesn't get a 2nd warrior in there first. If this doesn't cause some disruption, I'll be very confused.

[Thoth]

It belatedly occurs to me that a Volanna scout-choke strategy will be particularly ineffective against an opponent that chooses to forgo workers and tile improvements.

Every move has a counter-move.

The ultimate counter would have been for Norhtstar to delete the starting settler. No cities, no workers, no tile improvements----> Impossible to choke. Mardoc would have been stymied at t0

[HidingKneel]

We have options next turn. Even a 10% chance at the capital, which would end the game if he doesn't get a 2nd warrior in there first. If this doesn't cause some disruption, I'll be very confused.

Aren't there two warriors in that screenshot that could reinforce the capital?

Even if he doesn't, 10% chance to kill doesn't sound worth it. I think it's better to go with "100% chance to be disruptive".

It belatedly occurs to me that a Volanna scout-choke strategy will be particularly ineffective against an opponent that chooses to forgo workers and tile improvements.

All the joking aside, it looks like he's actually much better about that in this game. The two workers visible in that screenshot seem like a good number to me (only one less than you, and he doesn't have the lazy elven kind, and possibly will need fewer later if he's going to expand in a coastal direction).

[Mardoc]

In the end, I chose neither the 10% victory nor the 100% disruption. Because Northstar gave me this option instead:


2 Workers, guarded only by a single warrior. True, he had the river, but Shock negated that

Of course I deleted them.



So, um. I can't pillage, and odds are my scout doesn't even survive the interturn, but I still think that was worth the investment. Even if you count all the scouts who didn't make it this far .

[Qgqqqqq]

Mardoc, did you take issue with this:

All the joking aside, it looks like he's actually much better about that in this game. The two workers visible in that screenshot seem like a good number to me (only one less than you, and he doesn't have the lazy elven kind, and possibly will need fewer later if he's going to expand in a coastal direction).

And look to correct it?

[Mardoc]

I'm half-convinced Northstar was finished with them, and chose to sacrifice them as bait

[Qgqqqqq]

He is too wise, too wise! He managed to trick your valuable 16h scout out with a mere 96h sacrifice.

[Northstar1989]

I'm half-convinced Northstar was finished with them, and chose to sacrifice them as bait

Congratulations on defeating me Mardoc! (it's no problem I've reading your thread now, because, if you didn't already get the news, I conceded the duel to you...)


No, I didn't use the Workers as bait. It was much simpler than that, really. I was in a hurry the night I played that turn (real life, stuff like that getting in the way of my valuable gaming-time ) and forgot that you had a free promotion for your Scout.

Without it, you had considerably lower (less than 50%) odds of victory across the River- and I felt I needed to take that chance because I could see defeat looming in the long run thanks to my terrible Insanity traits (which were absolutely worthless at that point in the game) and the inevitable snowball in your favor from those, the relative lack of water on this map (there was definitely less water than there should have been for a "Snaky Continents" map) and the presence of the Wildlands setting (which would have given you piles of captured animals to boost your military and economy in the long run...), and the relative sparsity of good coastal sites this map-gen left me with...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

I get the feeling that your threat of taking away his games persuaded him, where no amount of pace complaints had any effect. Just got the save from him; it'll be only a day and a half between saves this time.

Been reading through the thread...

I don't appreciate all this bashing of my reputation. Believe it or not, it's not justified.

Yes, I have a life, and yes, it's chaotic at times. I'm now working 3 jobs, actually (and just struggling to pay student loans... )


My turn-times improving had nothing to do with Kragroth's threats. I had to do with my real-line schedule getting more manageable for a little while...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

One last thing:

In other news, I have proof for Northstar that worker-emphasis makes sense. We're a size behind him, but with three workers to his probable one, and more importantly...


Our raw demos are now better than his. Without any correction for population maintenance.

I never argued that worker-emphasis didn't make sense Mardoc. In general, it does- but it is very much subject to the specific map and leader/civ combination. And many other factors. The other place I was debating this with you it didn't make sense (I won't say more for fear of spoiling an ongoing game).

Here- I was working two Workers all along, and that turned out to be optimal. Your Demo's weren't better at the end of Turn 30- *MINE* were:




You were comparing apples and oranges due to having first place in the turn order if you were trying to determine the validity of one strategy vs. another (your Turn 30 end-turn was my Turn 31 end-turn). At the end of Turn 30 (the start of Turn 31) I had 2 more population than you, 3 more hammers/turn, 2 more beakers/gold per turn even before accounting for prereqs, and only 1 less food/turn that you. Your GNP reflected your Creative trait and the tech you were researching (which narrows my beakers/turn lead to only 2/turn when it would have been higher if I were also teching Education instead of Mysticism), my Soldier-count was higher, and the hammers I didn't invest in Workers I was free to invest in other things- if only those had been Warriors instead of a Granary...




Also, I invested in a Cotton plantation (which improved my happy-cap and solidified my tech-lead in the long run...) whereas you simply farmed over your Cotton- if I had built only Farms my food/turn would have been AHEAD of yours (and my base commerce/turn still higher- with beakers only tied due to Education having two prereqs to Mysticism's one), and my foodhammers (surplus food + hammers) would have been tied. So, it was *not* a matter of the number of Workers we each built, but what we did with the rest of our hammers (you built Scouts- I built... A Granary) that gave you an advantage.

And if I had gotten any decent trait-combo from Insane, it would necessarily have included either a useful economic trait (Financial, Philosophical, Creative, Industrious, Spiritual, or Expansive- with some obviously better than others) or a useful military trait (Raider or Aggressive)- either of which would have further solidified my Demographics advantage... I received literally the *only* useless traits that were possible for me to receive (Arcane was completely useless before KotE, Organized before having a much larger empire or teching Sailing or CoL, and Charismatic useless with Remnants of Patria providing that much happy-cap and your optimal strategy being to avoid combat with my units and to try and limit the productivity of my Workers by mere threat of force unless I made a stupid mistake that left them vulnerable like I did...)


I ran a bunch of calculations on the micro (part of why my turns took so long besides real life being crazy- these were hardly 30 second turns...) 2 Workers was optimal. A third didn't pay for itself for a long, long time, by which point I decided your choking me would have decided the game (which it ultimately did). If I had bought additional Warriors (to help avert a choke) instead of a Granary I would have been much better off than with a 3rd Worker...

The thing that made a 3rd Worker less worthwhile? The fast game-speed: the extra food-production didn't actually speed the city-growth by even a single turn because the growth-thresholds were so small, and an extra Worker so costly in turns of growth (such that you reached the same population levels at later turns with the extra Worker building only Farms...)


Also, the traits-change *DID* matter. Raider provides a free Commando promotion to all melee and recon units- which meant an extra first strike chance for every Warrior or Scout I built while it was active... (although my starting-traits were terrible, almost ANY new combo would have been better- except the one combo I ended up getting instead...) My later Insanity traits were literally the worst possible ones I could have received (with a 1 in 990 chance of this combo- and no possible combos worse than it), and was so unlikely it led me to suspect cheating on your part (hence the suspicion you detected about the bug I contacted you about later...)


Seeing the way you reacted to the stuff Bob said about banning me and such, though (talking about justice and such)- I'm more convinced it was Divine Intervention, Fate, or whatever you want to call it (because 1 in 990 chances *just don't* happen that often...) You seem to be one of the most morally decent players on these forums- and that seems to have won you some favor from a higher power...


Regards,
Northstar

P.S. Also- what population maintenance Mardoc? I thought you realized than even by size 9 (which I beat you to), neither of our cities would be incurring any maintenance-costs yet...