Averax's Armada

[Kragroth]

On Quick for vanilla FFH: Ashen Veil costs 884 . Infernal Pact costs 1326
On Quick for EITB : Ashen Veil costs 1658. Infernal pact costs 1658.

It's a huge nerf in cost. It makes rushing for ashen veil too expensive and makes practical Hyborem rushes all but impossible.

Bronze Working is still too centralized and important. There's very little point in building archers even if you're Ljosalfar. the only point would be if there was 0 copper around. So many units require metal to even build.

Sometimes you just want to cut down jungles without a huge tech cost. It's kind of like Hunting in a way. It's a military tech tied to a benefit and because it's a military tech you have to pay more than you'd like for it. It's why rushing for Fellowship of Leaves always sucks compared to Runes of Kilmorph or Octopus Overlords. The tech cost of hunting sucks compared to fishing or mining.

It's been a suggestion elsewhere to split up the Hunting tech and I'd say the same for Bronze working. It'd make things a little more equitable.

[Aurorarcher]

AV costs more because it's supposed to be a late game religion more than an early pick up (like RoK for example). For what version are those costs btw? I opened a game with quick speed and it says 1216 for both AV and Infernal Pact.

If it would cost less early Hyborem (say at T50) could be doable. Imagine the Str 13 monster spawning next to you when you hardly have bronze weapons!

[Kragroth]

Tech costs are modified by Map Size and Difficulty. I was using Huge Map with Monarch difficulty for those comparisons.

It's not even a question of early vs. late pickup. Ashen Veil costs considerably more than the Orders from Heaven, Honor, and Deception techs which are grant later game religions. To get the full benefit of Ashen Veil, you really want Priesthood as well which takes up even more tech time. With all of those bulbs, you can spend it a lot of other places for comparable or potentially greater benefit.

Turn 50 Hyborem was never really possible. It was closer to turn 70 in vanilla FFH.

[Mardoc]

AV has also been nerfed because it's quite powerful. Guaranteed access to collateral, strong melee units, one of the best civics in the game, some of the best heroes. You can't rush it, but it's still usually worth having by the time you can afford it. I'd put AV + Priesthood about equivalent power to Sorcery, more if you can take advantage of the economic benefits.

Edit: Also, Kragroth, when comparing costs, do remember that Way of the Wicked was removed.

@Aurorarcher: costs also depend on map size and difficulty, which probably accounts for the discrepancy.

I like that suggestion on Bronze, though. Especially on a balanced map, you pretty much have to research it no matter who you are. I don't think any other tech that deep in the tree is mandatory the way Bronze is - maybe HBR sorta counts, since Mobility promotions are so important.

[Aurorarcher]

Ah, I forgot about the map size! My bad.

Agree on the powerfulness aspect too, ritualists are one of the best to do collateral. And yes, don't forget about the StW civic, it's just sick, especially if you want to grow big and/or use foodhammers!

I agree that AV is more expensive than Honor/Order, but it's also more powerful - which only makes sense to higher beaker investment in my opinion.

[Kragroth]

Ah, I forgot about the map size! My bad.

Agree on the powerfulness aspect too, ritualists are one of the best to do collateral. And yes, don't forget about the StW civic, it's just sick, especially if you want to grow big and/or use foodhammers!

I agree that AV is more expensive than Honor/Order, but it's also more powerful - which only makes sense to higher beaker investment in my opinion.

You go for AV, Infernal Pact, Philosophy, and Priesthood. I'll go for something else. Let's see who wins

[Aurorarcher]

Hah! I don't think you can really beeline AV (and Infernal Pact) from too early.

But sure, we can have a fun duel (now that our ended the way it did ), and I'll go for AV if you want to test something.

[Kragroth]

Really nice start here. I settled on the plains hill for extra early production. There's still more triple hammer locations and a lot of forests. 3 flood plains and a food source within reach. I'm comfortable with this move. I think I'll make use of my Expansive Trait.

Although there are no Calendar resources immediately visible, I plan to play standard Agriculture to Calendar. After that point probably Mysticism or Education. I have two huts within close range of my scout. Yay!

[Kragroth]

It appears there's another tribal village within range. And, it looks like another prime settling location. I really like this start. I see these floodplains and think: Code of Laws, Code of Laws, Code of Laws.

I got 19 gold from the first tribal village. Not great, but good. If I get one free technology, I'm happy.

[Thoth]

Code of Laws, Code of Laws, Code of Laws.

Odd. I don't think I've ever seen "Pyre Zombie" spelt that way before.