[PB25-SPOILERS] The Lunacy of the Reign of HAK Continues

[HitAnyKey]

Ok, this will end up being the big empire update. But will likely do it in multiple posts. First post is the big news:


Got the peace (with his Map) from GJ and landed TGL!! Yay!

Next up the Demos and such.



[/spoiler]

As you can see with Research at 100% we only have 6 turns to Currency, however only enough gold to do that for 3 turns. So I plan to actually go back to 0% until we have enough gold to go straight through it. Also of note...TGL & our extra trade route gives us a pretty decent above average GNP.
We also lost graphs on Commodore this turn. Not because he put more into us, but simply because of his empire growth and my needing 1 more EP to keep his graphs. So I'll put 1 into him this turn with the other 3 going into GJ. Then go back to 4 to GJ until we get his graphs, then put it all into Commodore.

[MindyMcCready]

Congratulations!

Some thoughts:

We need to SPAM settlers NOW! Like, right now! Peace with GJ is a real bitter pill for me to swallow. We need to coat it with city spam to make me feel better.

City Sites:
1. Barb city.
2. 5S of Happy - we can't wait for the barb city. Chop out granary and monument or barracks. We have a very high risk of losing this city to Borsche.
3. 8S1W of Happy - very high risk of losing this one. Very valuable city as we can empty our region of military if we land it. Protects via land, protects via water.
4. 3S2E of Stressed
5. 5S1W of Stressed.

We originally talked about delaying some of these cities to avoid being G3 forked. But now they're largely free cities other than the 100H settler cost due to your GLH move. So we need to take that chance.

I'd rank corn-hill city as #3.5. It requires significant miltiary and doesn't benefit from TGLH so I'd say that we let Borsche have it. If we've reduced GJ's damn plant to smoking ruins we can attempt to take it later. If Borsche gets into a resource sucking war we can revisit.



#4. 3S2E uses corn to whip WB. Next build for culture.
#5. Immediately works the whales with wb from #4 while making a culture building. Alternatively, works the sheep if barb city can spare it.

To have any chance of landing #3 we need to have a settler moving in that direction in the next several turns.

Looks like we have 1 settler already built and 2 being built?

-Existing settler to #2.
-Sleepy settler to #3.
-Hungry settler to #5.

We need 1 more - immediately. Stressed builds a settler for #4.

These settlers can and should be whipped.

Notes on Grass hill mines. When I was ded-lurking WLP I built a spreadsheet to determine whipping vs not whipping. IIRC this was regular Civ and did not have the 2nd pop whip penalty. The question I was asking myself was at what point does the compound growth exceed the output from the high food-hammer conversion from whipping.

Base Case: A high food city would grow onto exclusively onto grass hill mines.
Whip case: Same city follow a 10T whip cycle.
Measurement: Total hammers over time.
Result:
-Up until about size 10, the 10T whip cycle outperformed in total hammers over time. In other words, if you had never whipped once, by size 10 the compound growth will have neutralized the whip conversion advantage.

However, if you can't get to size 10 for happy (or health) reasons then you should always whip away a grass hill mine.

Other considerations:
-This total hammers did not account for the increased maintenance costs of a larger city. This further favours the whip outcome.
-The total hammers does not take into account the value of equivalent hammers earlier. This further favours the whip.
-The scenario did not account for worker improvement costs or timing. This further favours the whip.
-None of this applies to a multi-pop whip. Multi-pop whips do not have a good food-hammer conversion and so would fail relative to growth onto GHM scenario.

Reason I'm telling you this: Do not be scared of whipping away GHM in Stressed or Sore to get an earlier settler (or anything really).

We have failed to sufficiently REX in this game. When I SIMMED from T65 to T78 I had 3 cities planted + 1 settler built by T78. This was possible due to ignoring military for a bit (and not having to contend with barbs) but also in part because I was exclusively focussed on putting out those settlers. At T91 our 3 cities + 1 settler we're in the same situation as my T78 scenario. Yes, there are some reasons for that. Nevertheless we need to now REX as if our virtual lives depends on it,...because they do.

TGLH is one of the best wonders to be sure and doubles-down our need to REX.

After we've accomplished the above 5 city sites we need to get a galley over to those southern island before Grimace does (if that's at all possible). We now need Grimace for OB and he might accept despite the lop-sided benefit. So we need to avoid aggravating him if possible. That island will get us ICTR so it might be worth the Grimace aggro especially if we don't have OB with him.

Alphabet has become a near must-have for us. Normally the first to alphabet gets to extract gpt from players for OB. We could offer a more attractive straight deal and still get the greater benefit. Given the 20% Currency bonus we might want to tech Alpha first if A. We can afford to delay the market happy and B. We think that anyone will actually accept OB with us. I don't know about either of those points.

[MindyMcCready]

Ok, this will end up being the big empire update. But will likely do it in multiple posts. First post is the big news:

Looks like Grimace can see into Stressed as well as Sore from that hill 2N1E of Stressed. He doesn't need the chariot there to see anything. Doesn't appear to increase visibility and offers no protection to a worker since we have a spear,..

Taking that hill with culture will help to make us a mystery. But we don't want to take his furs. If we do inadvertently, we can offer him the happy back.

Also of note...TGL & our extra trade route gives us a pretty decent above average GNP.

That is encouraging. It will get better with Currency and should drop much if any as we plant those next waterway cities. It seems like Engineering might be the path for us. As I said, we'd be able to stand up to Master Commodore and try to claim some of the remains of Grimace (as well as discourging those expensive Knights).

So I plan to actually go back to 0% until we have enough gold to go straight through it.

That sounds good. I debated Alphabet first,...but it's benefit comes with a risk, while Currency is guaranteed + cheap building. So Currency first as you've said.

[HitAnyKey]

So here's the overview of our empire.





It already puts a bit of a crimp in your suggestions, since I was already sending the settler to my planned spot south of Stressed, and that city was settled this turn. It's not on the coast, which was probably a mistake and I should have spent more time this morning reconsidering it. But all along I had wanted to have the spot be where it is, and I guess I didn't have enough coffee in me to think of how much that lost trade route might cost us in the future....my brain kept seeing the part of not wanting to have the wasted BFC tiles from it being at the edge of the world. Also, I felt it needed to have access to the Cow. I will be chopping a forest into the Monument, so in 13 turns the borders will open up to grab the whales. So it's both not in the order you wanted and not in the spot you wanted.

Sleepy's settler can still go settle the #3 spot if you think that's best. I was going to send it to grab that #2 spot. Already have a worker ready to start roading to it, with more on the way to help. With regards to the whipping...Sleepy could 2-pop whip the settler now (whipping off 2 GHM tiles). Is that what you are referring to doing some settler whipping?

Then the Hungry settler can head down to the #2 spot (or #3 if Sleepy takes #2). Would have to wait and see when/if it's worth it to whip this settler. Right now it's due in 5 turns.

I just switched Stressed to make a settler. Have two tiles that workers will chop into this, so this will actually come out faster than the currently shown 6 turns. This one can quickly grab the #4 spot to build the WB for Dancing.

As earlier suspected, the barb city has 3 warriors. The Axe will start killing them off. With any luck, by the time it's down to just 1 warrior the city will have grown to size 2.

Alphabet would take 4 turns. So either way we have to go this current turn at 0% to get enough gold in the bank. I'll have to look around a bit more to try to figure out if we can/should delay Currency.

Also, need to decide whether to have Happy work any Scientist specialists to get the first GP faster. This would give chances for either GM or GS as options. Need to find a list of the order of tech popping for each of these to see which tech the great person might get us. Do you know where the list is off the top of your head?

[MindyMcCready]

Some points:

1. We can delay the walls at Happy now that we have peace with GJ. Put a couple of hammers into it if you want for an emergency, regular, 2-pop whip but we have enough culture to see it coming.
2. As for Dancing,....well it's a stronger long-term city as well as a faster start up with the cows so it has debatable pros/cons rather than being a strictly bad move. No biggie.
3. I wouldn't 2-pop whip Sleepy since it won't make a material time difference. We should probably plant #2 first despite the urgency.
4. Hungry might be worth hard whipping since it has enough food to regrow quickly. I would also whip Stressed right into the ground if I though that it would get me that that #3 choke point. I'd say whatever can get you that city site first is worth doing. If Stressed is the solution, it looks like 4T of travel from From Stressed so a defender would have to start out immediately. Stressed can regrow while building axes or whatever.
5. Every one of these costal cities only needs a 1/2 price LH to make money so we can delay the worker-improved tile setup first if need be.
6. Regarding which settler goes where,...I'm agnostic on that note. Only concern is the speed of landing city #3.
7. Barb city? What's going on there? I though that it was planted on T80 and should have grown by T88 if it was working the deer. I guess if it was working the sheep then it would grow on T92,...so I guess we'll find out? LOL if it was building a worker. That will be frustrating as it will stop our 2 SW cities from using that shared deer. That will be a painful setback. Our #2 city would want a culture building first in that case.
8. GM will give us Metal Casting. If we tech Metal Casting (I think it's cheaper in RtR 2.0.7.4) then we'll get COL from a GM.
GS will give us alphabet. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy...e_tech.php
9. I no longer think that Alphabet is worth a delay on Currency. Maybe after Currency,...but it's in competition for COL.

[MindyMcCready]

Currency

{
Construction (522b)
AND/OR
Iron Working (?) --> UU needs Iron. No iron or vulnerable iron and Feudalism becomes a must have.
AND/OR
COL (522b) (GM BULB)
}

Metal Casting (448b) (GM BULB)
-workshops

Machinery (1046b)
-Trebs
-LM, Windmill, watermill

Engineering (1495b)
-REQ: Machinery & Construction
-Castle
-NotreDame
-3road movement
-UU

A castle will end Master Commodore's ambitions at our doorstep. He'd be forced to tackle us via sea which requires more resources. Speaking of Master Commodore I had hoped that he wouldn't plant that city there. Doesn't he know that we're hostile to all neighbours?

Of course, I think that we should raze it before the culture expands. That's a lot of forests that we're giving the runaway and he's got the religion to push us off our sheep in time. I find myself saying "his game to lose" alot. :LOL:

Axes if we can do so in time,...catapults if we have to. We'll be doing the rest of the world a favour as we plant a double-target on our backs with TGLH + past animosity. :LOL:

On the other hand, that city shouldn't make the difference in our warning time,...I think.

If we have units in Hungry,...(that can take a chariot attack, no more losing units for nothing) I'd position them 1N of Hungry as a warning. He's certain to get the message and will see that we now have peace with GJ. He'll know that his plant has the potential to piss us off and that he's vulnerable to a first strike.

[HitAnyKey]

1. We can delay the walls at Happy now that we have peace with GJ. Put a couple of hammers into it if you want for an emergency, regular, 2-pop whip but we have enough culture to see it coming.
4. Hungry might be worth hard whipping since it has enough food to regrow quickly. I would also whip Stressed right into the ground if I though that it would get me that that #3 choke point. I'd say whatever can get you that city site first is worth doing. If Stressed is the solution, it looks like 4T of travel from From Stressed so a defender would have to start out immediately. Stressed can regrow while building axes or whatever.
7. Barb city? What's going on there? I though that it was planted on T80 and should have grown by T88 if it was working the deer. I guess if it was working the sheep then it would grow on T92,...so I guess we'll find out? LOL if it was building a worker. That will be frustrating as it will stop our 2 SW cities from using that shared deer. That will be a painful setback. Our #2 city would want a culture building first in that case.
8. GM will give us Metal Casting. If we tech Metal Casting (I think it's cheaper in RtR 2.0.7.4) then we'll get COL from a GM.
GS will give us alphabet. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy...e_tech.php

1. The Walls was for now just something to put some hammers into. Considered also putting some hammers into Barracks. Basically wanted to get the city to grow. It'll switch to a Market as soon as capable. Maybe if retep doesn't play his turn in a couple hours (he's last to play) I might go back in and switch it to Barracks. That was my first thought actually.
4. Should I even consider a 3-pop whip of the Settler? I'll let you know as soon as a whip is even an option. It's not an option yet this turn, will see what next turn shows. Stressed might actually not even need to whip this coming settler...it'll get 60 hammers just from the chops. Might have suitable 1-pop whip...we'll see.
7. Yeah, don't know why it hasn't grown yet. I have a feeling once it got out the 3rd warrior it started on a worker. Not sure of the AI logic, but maybe once I start killing warriors, it'll switch back to building one and hence grow.
8. So yeah, I guess I should not dilute the GPP pool with a Scientist....Great Merchant will certainly be our best option. Though if we did get a GS, building an Academy might be an option. Not sure if it's a waste to bulb Alphabet or not.

[HitAnyKey]

A castle will end Master Commodore's ambitions at our doorstep. He'd be forced to tackle us via sea which requires more resources. Speaking of Master Commodore I had hoped that he wouldn't plant that city there. Doesn't he know that we're hostile to all neighbours?

Of course, I think that we should raze it before the culture expands. That's a lot of forests that we're giving the runaway and he's got the religion to push us off our sheep in time. I find myself saying "his game to lose" alot. :LOL:

Axes if we can do so in time,...catapults if we have to. We'll be doing the rest of the world a favour as we plant a double-target on our backs with TGLH + past animosity. :LOL:

On the other hand, that city shouldn't make the difference in our warning time,...I think.

If we have units in Hungry,...(that can take a chariot attack, no more losing units for nothing) I'd position them 1N of Hungry as a warning. He's certain to get the message and will see that we now have peace with GJ. He'll know that his plant has the potential to piss us off and that he's vulnerable to a first strike.

Yeah, this is one of the sucky parts about being a close neighbor to him. Especially with him getting such an early lead. I know he somehow needs to be kept in check....but I really don't think I'm ready to think about doing so. LOL
Looking at the map, he apparently also missed out on getting his quick expansion over to Battle Island. So he'll have to fight Elkad for it first before working his way south through GJ for it. I have to keep putting the thought out of my head of settling a city for our stone. It's pretty obvious that GJ did leave it for us, since he went a good amount north of it with his other city. Probably also why he didn't want to give us or let us get "his" stone city spot. But I just know he'll hold a grudge now for awhile, so even if I wanted to do it now it'd have to have at least 3-4 military in there to defend it...minimum.


Elkad appears to have settled another city this past turn 3N of Black Seminoles. So unless Comm gets something over there now, it's going to be Elkad & GJ with the island....until Comm conquers it with Knights. That's probably why he came south at me, when he realized he couldn't easily go across the water with that Settler.

I'm almost thinking that Elkad might be our best option for OB once one of the two of us get to Alphabet. He's down at the bottom of the score board, so he needs his own boost to help fend off Commodore. Which also lends me to think going for that GS possibility could also be good. Then if a GS does drop, we get Alpha and try for OB with Elkad. If the GM drops instead, we grab MC (or CoL if we decide to research MC manually).

[MindyMcCready]

Good points about Elkad.

Why did Master Commodore place the settler there? Was it on route to the island? If I didn't know better i'd say he's fielding a "how do you feel about that" by deliberately showing us the settler. It's strangely positioned otherwise.

If we show him the units he should get the answer that we don't like it. A fairly big part of me would want to see GJ lose and I'm half tempted to vassalize up to Master Commodore to see that happen. That same part of me may very well be suicidal in nature.

Still, that choke of ours + non aggressive actions means that he might look elsewhere. He's almost certain to pick on someone else if we have our UU unless he considers us very soft. Grimace seems like the obvious choice so we may be able to keep good relations with Master COmmodore while watching GJ burn!

[HitAnyKey]

That is just where the settler was last turn. It is currently on that forest (which the Worker is finishing chopping next turn) with the Axe & Chariot. So next turn, the chop finishes, and the city is founded. I only have 1 Axe & 1 Archer currently sitting inside Hungry. So nothing I can "show" him before he settles the city next turn.

Oh, and after I whip the settler in Hungry (leaning towards doing that as soon as available...even if 3-pop) I'm thinking I'll regrow on a Library. I need to get culture buildings in the city whenever possible to keep the Sheep.