WW39. Escape from the Congo.

[zakalwe]

Also circumstantial aka holistic stuff... Lewwyn suspected him, Novice or Gazglum tried to save him.

[AdrienIer]

Now, can we just come back to:

It's true that I held you while they beat the hell out of you. Sorry Bob. On the other hand thanks to Zak's good refreshing skills I'm still alive. Now I'll just leave that here :

[...]
Bob votes zak for "for pretending like anyone would have actually cared that he "faked a posting restriction"". And yet, the only person who's read anything off that is Bob. Seems to me, wanting to kill off a reasonably strong player and scrabbling for an actual justification to do so. Also, jumping on an established wagon - his vote brought zak up to 3, clear leader. Not liking that play at all.
[...]
Bobchillingworth

If Bob does die for his earlier message and ends up town I'll remember this.

"now that I've switched last minute to ensure Bob dies, let's everyone recall my previous statement that x other person should be implicated if Bob flips town".

Are you seriously attacking me because I voted to save my ass ?

[Shadeun]

Matt,
As Rowain said
Zak works with more buddies in my mind. You're a pretty statistically minded guy - how is Zak not the better vote in this case?

I dunno Matt. At the end of the day you have said nothing and now 'defence wise I dont have to answer much". You need to engage, so theres more to hold you against in future days.

Question: how does mountainous mean something in relationship to a WW game? You used it twice in your post and once in a previous post. I dont understand?
Does it mean no power roles? (feel like a 'stop trying to make fetch (mountainous) happen' allusion would work here as a joke)

[zakalwe]

Since everybody has switched to discussing scum pairs I guess I will do the same. I think AdrienIer + Novice makes a lot of sense holistically speaking, closely followed by AdrienIer + Gazglum. Maybe AdrienIer + Shadeun works too, but I'm not getting scum vibes from Shadeun today.

Does it make sense, holistically, though? People were trying to save Adrien, but Adrien wasn't really trying to be saved.

If AdrienIer flips innocent then I would likely turn back to Rowain and Shadeun. Gazglum and Novice could still be scum, but I mainly suspect them as AdrienIer's buddy.

People are pointing out consequences of Adrien being town and Adrien being scum. Maybe we should turn it around and asses the likelihood of the consequences, and determine Adrien's alignment from that.

1. He was present and ready to move if someone else made a move. But still trying to minimize his trail.

2. That approach sounds very indirect but you can try it if you want. If you do, what is your conclusion?

[zakalwe]

Mountainous = no power roles.

[AdrienIer]

Reasons to suspect AdrienIer:
- Illogical defense of Bob/attack on Mattimeo. He says the Zak wagon was weak, according to himself. Why assume that Bob shared that view? Why would Bob join a wagon that he viewed as weak, no matter his alignment?

IIRC it was halfway through D1 when Bob joined the wagon. He probably viewed it as the least bad vote, waiting for a better one. The wagon doesn't have to be rock solid for people to join it, it just needs to be the best available.

- Passive end of day one, despite allegedly suspecting all his voters.

Exam then champion's league game + being sure I'd be killed anyway made me lose some interest in the game. But I recovered now and don't intend to die. Also it didn't seem to bother you when you made the determining vote on Bob.

- Not overly compelling push against Shadeun today.

You have a right to your opinion. My push felt good before Shadeun started acting townie, now not so much I guess.

The rest is mostly bullshit, I guess.

Yep

[Mattimeo]

Now, can we just come back to:

It's true that I held you while they beat the hell out of you. Sorry Bob. On the other hand thanks to Zak's good refreshing skills I'm still alive. Now I'll just leave that here :

[...]
Bob votes zak for "for pretending like anyone would have actually cared that he "faked a posting restriction"". And yet, the only person who's read anything off that is Bob. Seems to me, wanting to kill off a reasonably strong player and scrabbling for an actual justification to do so. Also, jumping on an established wagon - his vote brought zak up to 3, clear leader. Not liking that play at all.
[...]
Bobchillingworth

If Bob does die for his earlier message and ends up town I'll remember this.

"now that I've switched last minute to ensure Bob dies, let's everyone recall my previous statement that x other person should be implicated if Bob flips town".

Are you seriously attacking me because I voted to save my ass ?

No, I'm attacking you for, after voting to save your arse, immediately using the lynch that you pushed through with that to cast suspicion on me.

I mean, you're the one that, fresh from wiping Bob's blood from your hands, waltzed in and said "I'll just leave this here..." with regard to an earlier statement of yours intended to incriminate me. And now you're trying to weasel your way out of that by pointing out that you had to make that vote or you'd die yourself? Yes. Sure. But you still immediately turned around and used that kill to paint me as suspicious. Which strikes me much more as a premeditated scum move, than anything remotely genuine.

(feel like a 'stop trying to make fetch (mountainous) happen' allusion would work here as a joke)

You'd be rather too late on that front, it's already very much happened: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mountainous

@Matt
Why not going after zakalwe then?

The case on Zak is pretty much entirely dependent on Adrien bring scum. I mean, little hard for the "sit on scum buddy all day then switch last minute" theory to play out if the person he's been sitting on all day (Adrien) turns out to not actually be scum.

If you force a race between Zak and non-Adrien, then (apart from being suspicious of your motives) I'll come down on Zak, but Adrien's the one I've suspicions of regardless of pair, while Zak I'm mostly suspicious of as a partner of Adrien.

[Mattimeo]

I dunno Matt. At the end of the day you have said nothing and now 'defence wise I dont have to answer much". You need to engage, so theres more to hold you against in future days.

Then give me something to actually engage with.

The attacks on me, apart from "is not very active", are not exactly something I can post about to change people's mind. Gaz's position comes down to "Matt works as scum in more options than anyone else", a probabilistic argument that's basically impossible to argue against other than "that's a fucking atrocious method of making decisions in a game that swings based around off the wall plays, and you know it." I shouldn't even need to state that much. Adrien does the classic scum move of jumping on a forming wagon (that he'd prepped earlier) while leaving his options open. Novice doesn't even give a reason. You blatantly state it's for lurking. What is there to actually defend against there?

I don't like mountainous. I need prompts to actually talk about. Meta. Role claims. Role usage claims. Mountainous devolves into he said / she said straight from the get-go. It takes a few days to actually settle down, establish people's habits that game (because, seriously, they can change massively between games, and even what scum buddies people have), see who was night-killed, analyse voting patterns. There's a reason 13 people (11-2) is standard. Less than that and there's just not enough time to actually get enough to reliably run from, without a way of generating information other than just talking.

You want me to talk? Then give me something to actually respond to. Something I *can* respond to, rather than just "you're not talking enough."

[novice]

Rowain is still my top suspect. I’m a bit surprised, and slightly suspicious, that I got such absolute zero traction on the case. No other scum eager to help throw dirt on a strong town player?

If it's not a slipup then what did you mean?

That was from my post saying why i believe Rowain to be scum. He is the 'other' scum. If there were two other scum out there, I would expect one of them to have at least commented something like, 'mmm, yes, Rowain is maybe a bit off' without risking themselves too much. You know, like Zak did.

No Rowain is not the other scum in that sentence, Rowain is the strong town player.

[AdrienIer]

Adrien does the classic scum move of jumping on a forming wagon (that he'd prepped earlier) while leaving his options open.

This is really incredebly wrong. A real misinterpretation. I had suspicions, then decided to flesh out my case and my bad luck made Gazglum post before me. So I felt I'd be better off on you then alone on Shadeun. It's really straightforward.