[PB26 Spoilers] Joey and Donovan play around in the muck

[spacetyrantxenu]

this is the 3rd 98%+ battle against them I've lost this game.

I'm hoping you've executed your top military commander for his treasonous ineptitude. I fear if he is allowed to continue in the post he'll continue to find ways to embarrass the (delicious) Banana empire.

[GermanJoey]

Oh don't worry, I gave him a swift kick in his banana for his failures!

Ok, here's a promised update! The game is going alright. We're starting to outgrow our crappy food situation a bit into some actually-good land, things have calmed down with Pindicator, and we are starting final preparations to go super saiyan level banana.

First, the banana gallery:

Supercity #1, our capital. We've temporarily stopped running specialists here in order to grow onto all our good tiles... we'll want to bring this up to size 17 at the very least. Also, marble, who needs marble??



Supercity #2. I really really want to grow this more, but I really really need settlers and HR garrisons too, and somebody's got to get the actual work done while the capital just fools around with its banana, building wonder after wonder...




Moai #2 is almost done, to turn this into Supercity #3. I had a superior island spot available too, but that one would come online waaaaay slower than this guy, since this already has its OR buildings whipped in.



Our crappy dry wheat border city is slowly becoming "respectable," with "respectable" meaning something entirely different for Team Banana...



22hpt, 3 turning workers... an early Bureau supercapital, or...?

Other cities are still small and relatively undeveloped, but I have 10 granaries and 8 German Assembly Plants (forges) so far, so not bad. I need, like, infinite more workers, as lumbermills take more than 2X as long to build as any other kind of early improvement.

In other news, this intrepid explorer is on his way to meet Krill, for his juicy KTB. Lets hope he survives the journey!




Overview:




Silver, our fourth Assembly Plant resource, will be hooked in 5 turns, to bring them up to +45%, the last bonus until coal. I have 4 cities planned to plant in the next half-dozen turns or so, which will be it for awhile I think. Tech plan is HBR -> Theocracy -> Paper -> CoL, the last in time for a revolt into Standardization. I have 14 lumbermills right now, the first of which will become a LM3 in 5 turns, and 4 more currently being built. And more planned, of course. Who needs more cities when you can have as many 3/4/2 tiles as you want?

Demos, MFG, and CY:

[GermanJoey]

hmmm, gonna type up some stuff here while the game is down.

Game situation - still good. We're one of the strongest civs in the game, along with Pind and Thoth. Krill might be up there too, I'm not sure, he might be very close to Knights with his GS rush. (I still haven't met him yet, btw, barbs kept killing the units I sent over to make contact ) Our MFG is crazy and will get a whole lot crazier in the next few turns; IIRC we're already pushing 250hpt civ-wide, while our nearest rival, the #2, is around 180hpt. We'll soon be around 320-350hpt I think, in six turns, once Paper finishes and we switch into Standardization. Our capital already produces 50 raw hammers by itself, which is an even 85hpt with our cathedral and assembly plant. (+70% bonus) Right now we're really desperate for workers, so I'm gonna 3-turn the Hagia Sophia as soon as marble is hooked up, heh. Our capital will soon reach around 80-90 raw hpt, (136hpt - 153hpt w/ modifiers) which actually presents a serious problem... I'm running out of stuff to build that doesn't waste tons of overflow. So, as funny as its been to me to avoid Mathematics until the Medieval era, I think I need to get otherwise worthless Currency next after CoL just so that my capital can build wealth. I'll also need to get Knights soon, as my #2 and #3 cities will also have the same overflow problem with horse archers and catapults. I'm already 1-turning them out of one of them.

Unfortunately, our north-south neighbor, Pindicator, is also very strong. He has a demanding score lead and 15 cities (to our 11, although I'm hoping to squeeze out 14-15 with the land I have), and just landed the Hanging Gardens a turn or two ago. We had almost caught up in crop yield, but then he jumped ahead by another 30 ;( The bigger problem is that he's adjacent to Cheater Hater, who is SO far over his head in this game. CH has already ceded a ridiculous amount of land to Pind, and is I think behind a whole era worth of tech compared to any other player. He complained in the tech thread about barbs, but that's probably just because he didn't/couldn't spawn bust because of his ridiculously awkward settling pattern for his first few cities. I was also behind in spawn-busting too because of my problems with horses/copper, but didn't notice anything unusual given that... it just felt like a game where I didn't spawn bust. Anyways, I'm not sure what to do about Pin. The only way I can picture conquering him is if I can beat him to some critical military tech by a few turns then 1-turn a million of whatever unit that is, and then just bury him under the shear weight of units. However, his MFG is #2 or #3 and his tech rate is about parity to mine, so that doesn't seem like a likely option. I don't have good expansion opportunities beyond that though... Brick is kinda at an obtuse angle from me, and plako settled some extremely defensive cities towards me. Both of them have pretty smallish borders with me, at least compared to what I have with Pind. Well, I'll just keep growing for now, I guess. Just having fun with this game, watching my numbers get bigger and bigger.

also, some assorted and randomly ordered thoughts about the mod:

• The ancient era tech balance is really great; it feels very flexible, in that each path has some great strong points, but still requires you to make tradeoffs because there isn't any single standout techs anymore, like how Pottery and BW were before. It's definitely a highlight of this mod, Krill did a good job here.
  
• OTOH, Classical techs need their costs increased, at least if Paganism giving +2c to monuments and Writing giving +1 free routes is going to be a thing. It's been way too easy to blast through those despite not paying much attention at all to my economy. Well, I guess I had stuff like Stonehenge (better than the GLH in the ancient era) and some settled Prophets, but still, I shouldn't have been able to keep up in tech like I did. Maybe +25% tech cost to every classical tech? I don't think the Medieval techs necessarily need their costs increased, fwiw.
  
• The Mids kinda sucks now. Well, its not that it sucks, as uber new police state is quite a desirable civic, its just a lot more niche now. The problem is that a.) there's a lot more motivation to grow your cities now, with tiles like lumbermills, forest preserves, and uber-Moai available, b.) HR is still the best for getting very big cities, plus gives additional new, helpful bonuses to your capital, and c.) monarchy is a much easier tech to get early because monotheism is so much more attractive than it was before. I still think the wonder could be pretty good with, say, a Cha leader... maybe something like Cha/Agg/Ind, that'd be a slam dunk to abuse Police State.
  
• New Moai is crazy. You need HR to make the most of it, but goddamn, what a crazy wonder. It LOVES lake tiles now, btw.
  
• Lumbermills are very strong but actually kinda balanced? It's very awkward to build up a lot of them early, as they take so much fucking worker labour and its hard to get lots of worker labour because you're not chopping trees, whether into more workers or the other stuff you want. I've been abusing the whip really hard to keep up. Then again, I only have one lumbermill three so far, so we'll see whether they're truly broken or not very soon.
  
• Vassalage is absolutely too strong; some buildings need to be removed from the free hammer list - Barracks at the very least, maybe markets, libraries, and courthouses too. (I guess they can keep the gold/beaker) HR doesn't need the bonus beakers/hammers/gold that it gives, as its more desirable now in general. Standardization seems too strong too, although I'm not actually in it yet, and I wonder if anyone who didn't lumbermill rush like I did would find it as good.
  
• OR is very strong but perhaps fine, as it needs to be pretty good to justify the tech path as compared to Paganism. I can see using Theocracy, although not Pacifism, as I already have more food than I know what to do with in my few biggest cities. FR seems pretty solid too... I might try it out, if I find that I get diminishing returns from more hammers.
  
• Early infrastructure is way more important now because of the new fixed-bonus civics. OR gives me +4 hammers for two buildings I can two-pop whip in, Vassalage gives +4 hammers/gold/beakers for a building I'll insta-chop, two buildings I can two-pop whip, and another I can two pop whip after a couple extra turns. Police State would be giving me +4 hammers and beakers for buildings I'd already have, and another 2 for a building that also gives a bonus from Vassalage. So, all together, including the city tile, that's (4+4+4+1)*1.45=19hpt, 10bpt, 4gpt, and 1cpt for a size 1 city working no tiles, and I just need a chop and 4 whips. So, eta within 20 turns after founding, with a couple half-decent food tiles. That's fucking ridiculous.
  
• Protective is very strong in the late-classical, early medieval period now, where you're settling your last cities, because it gets them online and productive so much faster. We need 3-4 whips, and the fastest way to get 3-4 whips is a half-priced Granary, which by the way also produces a free hammer, heh.
  
• Imperialistic is maybe one of the best traits now I think, because you're trying to do a lot more early in each city, grow more, build more buildings, etc, and the best early hammer saver and the best growth-allower is Imp. I was really happy I had Pro, but kept wishing I had Imp.
  
• New Ind is cool. The wonder bonus is still enough to give you an edge on particular wonders that you want, and the loss of -15% production is more than made up for later by the double national wonders. I had no stone yet was still able to squeeze out two Moais, which are waaay stronger now. I'm looking forward to getting two HEs out... I estimate I can get 5 cities that can 1-turn Knights very easily. Cheap forges are also quite desireable because of Vassalage/OR free hammers; it provides a hammer by itself and also amplifies all the other free hammers. The German Assembly plant is a pretty great UB, I think... perhaps too strong, but you could say that about a lot of the new UBs. It's certainly not an insta-nerf like the broken Portugeusue feitora, that I'm quite sure was an accident rather than an actual design decision.
  
• New Phi is very strong, but it's tough to gauge how strong it actually is. Stacked super-specialists are super awesome in the classical/medieval era, but will fall off after that as empires start getting bigger. Also, GA are less desireable now, as civic swaps are free anyways. You'll still want some, but a 4th GA is a lot more questionable. Bulbs are less desireable as well, as your GPP counter will already be high from stacking super-specialists early and you'll want any other GPs to go towards GAs.
  
• My beloved Expansive seems crappy now. Currency is worse and other classical techs are better, and the work boat bonus is worse because they're foodhammer units now. The worker bonus is still useful but Imp's settler bonus is vastly better. I guess some of the Exp UB's are still pretty good, but stay away from this trait, IMHO, unless you have a particutlre plan in mind to take advantage of one of them.
  
• I'm not quite sure what to think about Agg now. On one hand, its worse because monuments are a lot better thank barracks, thanks to free paganism commerce. OTOH, its very easy to stack up insane amount of XP, between Vassalage and Theocracy, etc, so having that free promo matters a whole lot more. Barracks also get bonuses from Police State and Vassalage, and its nice to have a cheap building that gives such big bonuses in new cities.
  
• Shrines are weak now, as there's not a lot of motivation to build missionaries. I guess maybe I'd want to build a few if I didn't have SH, for new cities' border pops, but there's no situation like before where you want to spread religion everywhere... just settling the prophet probably providies a better ROI.
  

[GermanJoey]

T112.

Paper's in.




Heh. HEH. For reference, this city is producing more hammers this turn than THE ENTIRE TOTAL OUTPUT OF THE SECOND PLACE CIV. In 2 turns, it will actually gain 10 more base hammers. The funny thing about this city is that it actually produces TOO MUCH hammerage right now - I can't actually build anything except wonders without wasting a shitload of overflow.



(Note that neither the +35% I get from wonders nor the +50% from my marble is included in my demos MFG!)

I'm also coasting up to #1 power just because my #2, #3, and #4 cities actually have nothing to build but 1 or 2 turn horse archers. Just 9xp for now, but will be 10xp once courthousen are in. I'm building my 8th temple, and so I get to build another Cathedral soon... not sure where I want it though. Banana Bread was the obvious place but then it will have the same problem as the capital, where it produces too much hpt to actually build units without wasting hammers. Maybe my 2nd Moai, Banana Pudding?




Workin' a pair scientists here instead of the mines just because I'm already max overflow, heh.

So, CoL in two turns to coincide with a switch to Standardization. That's gonna be my last civic switch for awhile, although I think that with Currency I'll be able to manage my happycap well enough that I could switch into Rep. We'll see. For next techs... it's tempting to just get Literature next and like 2 turn the TGL just for denial value, and ofc the HE and NE are super awesome for me, but its probably a wiser decision to go with my earlier plan of getting Currency next. Unfortunately, Thoth got the music artist, and, surprisingly, Pindicator also has Aesthetics (and grabbed the SoZ), so I guess the Music line is a lot less desirable for me now. Thoth, by the way, I think, is the strongest civ right now, then Pindicator, and then me. I'll be stronger once I get the techs to build some medieval units. Anyways, after Currency, I suppose I need to decide whether to pick up Calendar and Construction? I suppose I could also get Literature then... eventually, my next "big" tech is Guilds for Knights. I'll have, I think, 4 cities that can 1-turn them by then, so THEN I'll be strong.

Let's see, other things. I finally made contact with Krill after wading a horcher through two more barbs en-route, yeesh. Krill looks to be doing well but is not as far ahead tech-wise as I expected. Other things... I 1-turned a few settlers outta the capital, and am planting my last few settlements and a few fillers. I'm a bit behind in city count, 12 right now (for reference, Pind at 16, Thoth and Krill at 15), although I'll have 15 once these guys plant. I'll have further space for two shitty internal fillers after that, but that's it. My further expansion prospects are not great... plako is my best opportunity right now, which, you know, if you ever find yourself saying "my best chance of conquering new land is to take it from plako" then you're probably fucked. Brick is weaker than plako, but a.) he's like, agg/pro/cha or some crazy shit like, and b.) all his territory is diagonal NE from mine, so it would be very difficult to keep. *shrugs* We'll see, we'll see.

[Commodore]

Wait, why *not* Currency? If your problem is "productive uses for the hammers", that solves all the problems instantly.

... plako is my best opportunity right now, which, you know, if you ever find yourself saying "my best chance of conquering new land is to take it from plako" then you're probably fucked.

Yeah, I feel that one.

[GermanJoey]

Yeah, exactly, that's my main motivation for Currency, just for wealth builds pretty much. It doesn't give the free routes anymore so its not the super-duper tech it used to be, but its still good enough to not be completely skippable I guess. Alphabet for research builds would be cheaper, but I want some math-prereqs, i.e. Calendar for plantations (and maybe for MoM denial), and Construction for the new souped up Colosseums. A market would also be pretty nice in my capital too, considering I'll have 8 settled great prophets in there soon (or maybe 6 prophets and 2 merchants, we'll see how the dice roll).

By the way, I don't think I've mentioned this in-thread, but I've sorta been playing a secret joke-variant with myself just to see how long I could delay Mathematics. After a few games of playing Exp civs in RtR and Imp in ToW, Math seems to be the classical tech I get first most often, so it was kinda fun to get it super late like this because the religious line is so super strong.

[GermanJoey]

Actually, "delay Math to 1AD at the earliest" might be a fun variant for Adventure 62...

[GermanJoey]

Hmmm, Pind switched into slavery, started whipping, and is in a turn split... planning to attack BRick maybe? Maybe I can grab a piece myself... him hitting CH is another option, but I can't do much about that.

6/14/15 2:30 pm pindicator Logged out
6/14/15 2:29 pm plako Score increased to 757
6/14/15 2:29 pm GermanJoey Score increased to 881
6/14/15 2:29 pm Thoth Score increased to 895
6/14/15 2:29 pm pindicator Score increased to 947
6/14/15 2:29 pm CH Score increased to 453
6/14/15 2:29 pm Krill Score increased to 803
6/14/15 2:29 pm BRick Score increased to 661
6/14/15 2:29 pm A new turn has begun. It is now 25 BC
6/14/15 2:29 pm pindicator Finished turn
6/14/15 2:27 pm pindicator Score decreased to 921
6/14/15 2:25 pm pindicator Score decreased to 931
6/14/15 2:13 pm pindicator Score decreased to 941
6/14/15 2:06 pm pindicator Score decreased to 946
6/14/15 2:05 pm pindicator Logged in

[GermanJoey]

Super Saiyan Swagger

[GermanJoey]

this is what Seven and TBS must have felt like in PBEM63, this is just ridiculous