[PB25-SPOILERS] The Lunacy of the Reign of HAK Continues

[HitAnyKey]

Hak, we need those spies to be stationary, permanent, early warning signals. MC will soon be interested in taking us down a notch.

Yeah, I was already sending that spy back to that spot. I sent him too far north originally, wanting to get a quick look around that area first. Either that or I'll use the one currently by Dragon Thief to go to that spot, and continue the other one up to look around his core. With the 3rd one being the early warning near Sore.

[MindyMcCready]

Not entirely sure what to make of it all. I'm hoping he's not actually expecting me to DOW on Commodore.

That sure sounds like he's asking us for a mirror DOW. Yeah,...that's a pretty asymmetrical deal. Not gonna happen.

I suggest that we keep reoffering every turn, GJ style, that he cancels his OB with MC via DOW. Do that 'really insisting' thing that GJ has been doing to indicate how strongly we feel about it. For lurker amusement,...we intend to DOW GJ for his corn-stealing ways in either 5T or 9T. The intention is to get him to cut his trade routes with MC, also cut by us and he's left with otherwise tense borders elsewhere with the exception of Retep and Grimace. He'll probably be pissed but I consider war with him inevitable the minute that we step onto Borsche mainland if not sooner if he tries to retaliate over our 1 island plant.

Maybe he's signaling that he'll be able to stop his OB in 1 turn?

That's possible, however, I've generally seen 1 gold as a message of acceptance of your offer. So that would be my first guess. 1 gold is also often used to indicate "you win" on a minor skirmish.

Though I'm sure he's also gotten a huge benefit from it.

Almost certainly, his benefit far exceeds our own. Can you see what his gpt is like when you get a chance? It probably doesn't match our own since he would be working super-specialists and earning a ton of science rather than a ton of gold.

EDIT: Oh, I think I may have figured out what Joey may have been trying to signal. Maybe he can also see Comm's research, so he's telling me that Comm is 1T from a military tech (ie. Engineering)...which I can also see on my own. But he wouldn't have any way to know that I can already see that. Speaking of seeing tech, I believe I'm currently 2 turns or so out from being able to see GJ's research. I still seem to be the only person who has build Courthouses, since I haven't seen anyone elses EP rates increase on the graph.

Hmmm, never thought of that. Ok,...interesting. You know, we would probably have been allies if he wasn't so corn greedy and setting things up to 1T our city. I'll let it all go if he doesn't try to kill our defensive island plant.

[HitAnyKey]

Hmmm, never thought of that. Ok,...interesting. You know, we would probably have been allies if he wasn't so corn greedy and setting things up to 1T our city. I'll let it all go if he doesn't try to kill our defensive island plant.

Heh, yeah. If only way back in the beginning he had simply settled that city 1 tile west of it's current location, we would have been pretty content to just let it be for the long-term. Obviously not forever, but it would be on the bottom of the list for our desired conquests.

As per the comments you already typed in the googledoc chat, I'll probably pop back in quickly before the turn ends to change some of those CB builds to something else, such as WEs or Swords.

And the CB in Bedazzled you mentioned I had started that so that it at least has been started so that we can 2-pop whip it at some point if the city felt threatened. Though my original intent was to do the Spearman there slowly until I can whip out a Landsknecht. Still not sure why I switched it to a CB this turn. Dang impulse actions. So maybe getting at least a turn into an Archer (as you suggest) is a good idea. Even whipping it next turn. Since we're still plenty of turns from that Spear changing to the UU, so still plenty of time for the city to regrow from a whip such that it'll be able to whip out the UU when available.

From one of the questions you asked in chat....this current turn, GJ has 163 gold and 0gpt. So he's currently got research going for a gpt loss. I'll see what that changes to next turn.

[MindyMcCready]

One thing: Before we decide to keep/raze Burning Spears,...we have to know if Borsche has cultural control over the replacement site.

Overall, I want to raze that city for the security, the naval mobility and the greater food but we won't get that choice if Borsche has that tile. One option is bringing a settler along with us and replanting that city before the culture recalculates. Not sure if the settler is ready or not.

It's interesting that GJ is making cats there,...that whole thing about critical mass. If he's making a conscious decision then that would suggest that he might have more units outside of our view. In lieu of a spy, a chariot or HA could move from Anxious to the stone hill on the same turn that we move the stack 2S of Anxious. We'd then DOW if it looked good.


So T-1:
Actually chariot to stone,...decide.
IF good, then Stack moves 2S of Anxious
DOW and then the chariot/HA will teleport into our territory. GJ could kill it of course but only by stranding one of his own units.

I guess that makes T-1 actually "T". :LOL:

[HitAnyKey]

We do have the Settler that is being built in Hungry, but that one was originally designated as being one to send over to that tiny Crab Ice Island southeast of Borsche. Though he likely has cultural control of the Crabs if he planted a city on that southern coast (which I would have likely done if I was him). So if we planted a city there pre-war, it'd be stuck working just those 1/0/2 coast tiles for awhile.
So if the Hungry settler instead goes for replanting Burning Spears, it'll be ready probably before we have a stack ready to attack the city. Also, looking at the layout of the land (and there the culture from his capital is right now I do not believe Borsche's culture would reach that grassland 1SW of Burning Spears. So we should be able to replant there.
That would probably be the first time I'll have razed a size 8+ city with multiple improvements in it. I know right now it has Granary, Walls, Barracks at minimum. Though some/most of those will probably vanish when it gets captured anyway. But we might want to have a contingency though in place as to whether it is worth keeping if it does end up keeping lots of buildings upon capture. Is there any handful of buildings that would make it worth keeping the city and not being able to have the naval passage/security?

[MindyMcCready]

That would probably be the first time I'll have razed a size 8+ city with multiple improvements in it. I know right now it has Granary, Walls, Barracks at minimum. Though some/most of those will probably vanish when it gets captured anyway. But we might want to have a contingency though in place as to whether it is worth keeping if it does end up keeping lots of buildings upon capture. Is there any handful of buildings that would make it worth keeping the city and not being able to have the naval passage/security?

If the city had a library and a forge and a university,...well maybe.

Factors in our consideration:
-The more that we think GJ is going to freak out, the more that we should raze and replant. Being his own city if he recaptures it his culture will reassert. With the hills there he'll be more tempted.
-We can achieve the same naval mobility with 2 forts: wines + grass 3Sof Burning Spears so that's only a factor for timeliness.
-Burning spears is a monster with +6 food right now. Assuming that everything was cottaged it would stay at +6 food.

Replant:
Size 1: +6 food from corn
Size 2: dry rice +8 food (+9 with CS)
Size 3: Lake + 9 food (+10F with CS)
Size 4: Lake +10 foot (+11F with CS)

So we're going to regrow it very, very quickly. I could see Shakespear's theatre in here producing 1 draft every turn ontop of building a strong naval fleet with stone + iron + 3 plains WS.

So I'd still favour raze and replanting. It also won't be a size 8 city with GJ getting at least 2 turns to whip it down. We'll probably be razing a size 3 city if that makes you feel better.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention TGLH trade routes making it instantly profitable + the harbour + the ability to make navy where Burning spears cannot.

[MindyMcCready]

Gave a quick read through GJ's latest PB18 posts,...

That guy carries some long-lasting grudges. We'll have to see what we can do to defend the coast around the capital since I'd anticipate he'll at least try to destroy our fishing industry. We'll also have to see what we can do to save our island city since he's unlikely to see the asymmetry of his city on our mainland stealing huge resources compared to our city on an island we didn't dispute him for stealing no resources.

The raze and replant should make him feel that his capital is less threatened,...that's another reason for the replant.

I should probably log-in at some point, but could you please post a pic of the land between Borsche mainland and GJ land? I think that our southern naval invasion should work as we simply push along Borsche's bottom 3 cities. Borsche will likely be ill-equipped to fight our LKs since WEs would be his most effective unit against Gavagai. Same for Gavagai since his UU is crushed by our UU.

Anyway, I'll post a pre-lim Borsche invasion plan tomorrow. Due to narrow waterway, we can land 30 units next to/inside of Popeyes within the first 2T using only 5 galleys. We'll need a Trieme for stack protection. So that really reduces our naval needs and allows us to focus on more land units.

[HitAnyKey]

Gave a quick read through GJ's latest PB18 posts,...

That guy carries some long-lasting grudges. We'll have to see what we can do to defend the coast around the capital since I'd anticipate he'll at least try to destroy our fishing industry. We'll also have to see what we can do to save our island city since he's unlikely to see the asymmetry of his city on our mainland stealing huge resources compared to our city on an island we didn't dispute him for stealing no resources.

The raze and replant should make him feel that his capital is less threatened,...that's another reason for the replant.

I should probably log-in at some point, but could you please post a pic of the land between Borsche mainland and GJ land? I think that our southern naval invasion should work as we simply push along Borsche's bottom 3 cities. Borsche will likely be ill-equipped to fight our LKs since WEs would be his most effective unit against Gavagai. Same for Gavagai since his UU is crushed by our UU.

Anyway, I'll post a pre-lim Borsche invasion plan tomorrow. Due to narrow waterway, we can land 30 units next to/inside of Popeyes within the first 2T using only 5 galleys. We'll need a Trieme for stack protection. So that really reduces our naval needs and allows us to focus on more land units.

Glad you had a chance to read some of the GJ-grudge....I've read and seen some of his as well, previously. Hence why I have kept being so leary about going after that city until we have a STRONG defense of both city defenses and Trireme defenses around our core. And right now we have neither. Also another thing about taking that city away from him....it'll remove his source of Stone. Though I suppose we could always gift him Stone (since we'll have 3 sources) if we think that'll appease him at all. Though his capital might have culture across the water to hold the Stone for a little while anyway.

When I log in later (might have to hop into the game in an hour to pause for retep) I'll take that screenshot you asked for. But yes, please do also log in at some point for yourself. There is just quite a lot on the map to try to detail everything that you might need to help with the input.

As for Borsche.....Gavagai took (and kept, this time) another city (I'll find out which one when I log in) from Borsche just now. So he might already be down to only 3 or 4 cities at most. So at this rate, Gavagai will have Borsche's capital before we can build even 2 or 3 Galleys, let alone get them in position.

[HitAnyKey]

Ok, here goes. Big update set of details....


First up we have the event log and also showing GJ's city. He's got a LB now...so I'm guessing he just got Feudalism and is now working on Machinery as you can see. Commodore didn't pick his tech yet, so I don't know what he's researching now that he's finished Engineering.

Here's the demos and graphs:

These two shots show Borsche's land...at least what I know of it. In the spoiler tags show diplo windows with both Gavagai & Borsche. This shows that Gavagai is holding the cities of Dunkin Donuts, Wendys, & Whataburger (I'm guessing that was the name of that southern captured city). Borsche only has his capital, McDonalds (which he recaptured), Five Guys, and Taco Bell. I've never seen Taco Bell, so I'm assuming that's something he settled on the southern shore.



Joey finished taking the last of Elkad's cities on the island. So right now, except for my tiny stone city, GJ now has that whole island.



This shot shows my stack in Sonic and I added flags to show my other units from that fight in the area. I'm leaving the WE/Sword in Arbys until I have other defenders there. The long Catapult is on his way to meet up with the Sword/Cat stack near In-N-Out.






I have a few cities making Archers for two reasons. I have multiple cities that still don't even have a single MP unit, and they are nearing their happy cap because of that, so need to at least get a unit in them. And also need to get some Archers over to the former Borsche cities so that the offensive units can leave those cities.

[HitAnyKey]

Just logged in because I forgot to take a screenshot:


Donovan actually has at least one city on the island with retep and Gavagai. So I'll meet him next turn, earlier than expected. Yay! Hopefully I can get Open Borders with him. That'll also give me a nice boost. And I don't mind helping someone that is halfway across the world...and borders GJ.

Commodore was also logged in and as you can see he chose Calendar as his tech for now. I waited for him to log out to pull up his diplo window. Also pulled up GJ's just for posterity and in case we care.