(July 1st, 2015, 08:20)HitAnyKey Wrote: I am actually highly considering going after the old Grimace lands. If retep is actually whipping out units to attack MC on that side, me going after these lands will cause a 3-front war for MC. He won't be able to protect that. And may as well hit these cities before MC can whip out thousands of units, since they are all still small already. He'll get a whip or two, but that's about it. I might have more luck here than I would getting units shipped over to Gavagai quick enough. I'll probably make the decision next turn or two, maybe. Basically need to decide where to start positioning this stack of units for which front they need to be on.
Anyway, gotta go.
On the "MC won't be able to protect". Well that may not be as true as you're thinking. Protective LBs + protective CBs are brutal to attack into. Then there's the issue that his knights do flanking damage to cats. A C2 knight still has 35% odds vs a C1 LK and a C2+Shock Knight has 65% odds against a C2 LK. I will say that with flaking damaged nerfed we won't run too much risk of being flanked to death based on the sim I ran. That was against HA however.
So I see us taking/razing a couple of cities at pretty high cost. That might be worth it especially if Retep gets in a raze or two of his own.
But what comes next? Gavagai gets culture in those cities and techs to LBs or CBs while finishing off Grimace and near matching us in cities. So we've got MC next to us and a strengthening Gavagai. So we're done land-wise for the forseeable future. MC can keep eating Elkad and/or tech to Cuirassiers and eat Retep. So attacking MC is the way to "not lose" rather than a way to win.
Our only chance to win is to slam into Gavagai. No doubt this is a Hail Mary play to be sure. I think that we should be able to force a retreat from Popeyes and McDonalds easily enough. Chik fil A we can boat and that will give us a 3 city beachhead. Meanwhile we try to plant those 4 ice cities and wait to see if we can generate some opportunities forking Burger King and Five Guys.
There is a near-certainty that MC will hit us during that time. I would define success as gaining 3 Borscheland cities (allowing 4 more iceballs) while only losing 1 city to MC. We have the Retep factor which will hopefully work to our advantage as well as the possibility that MK takes a stab at the island. I will also mention that Gavagai is in builder mode right now and his army might be out of position if he's going for the last of Grimace's cities.
So we'd be attacking a weaker opponent (good) while fighting a strong opponent with a home-field advantage (good) and not attacking into protective LBs (very bad). So I would say proceed with the attack. Lastly, MC's strange plays in gifting the city to Elkad and MK's chance of holding UpTown Warriors means that MC is not so far ahead in city count and lack some of the naval advantage to make this a pure slaughter while attacking us that we were assuming before.
T140: Birth 2nd GP. Launch 1 GP-GA. Likely 2 GAs as we produce additional GP.
T142: Invasion of Gavagai.
Apologies to Master Krill and Retep for not joining in. We just don't think that there's a stageII to fighting MC. Donnovan gets stronger, MK gets stronger, Gavagai gets stronger, MC will have expasion opportunities. We'll have what we currently have. With Gavagai in builder mode + my suspicions that he's going to hit Grimace this is our best chance to stand next to the giant.
(July 1st, 2015, 04:27)GermanJoey Wrote: Clearing out the units while gifting me a galley that was really far from the troops I was trying to ship over just seemed like a big middle finger to me.
I really don't understand how gifting you a galley can be considered an insult.
Because it came without units? What the fuck did you expect I could do with this galley? Smash it onto the shore and hope his knights' horses get splinters when they run into the empty city? I'm especially not sure what you thought I could do with it for just 5 turns, if I actually understood your message about it being loaner, because it took about 5 turns travel time just to get to my units! And you say you understood the map just fine?
Quote:
(July 1st, 2015, 04:27)GermanJoey Wrote: I tried so hard, over and over and over and over to be deferential to you, to offer you beneficial deals, to try to communicate simple messages like "DUDE JUST LOOK AT THE FUCKING MAP" that it seemed like you didn't understand and apparently actually didn't understand. Meanwhile you guys try elaborate stuff like "40g means we want to buy a spy" and "5g for crabs means we're loaning (??) a galley to you" that I've never heard of anyone using, and go ballistic over a defensive city that was 5 tiles from my capital and 10 tiles from yours.
We're at a bit of a disadvantage here information wise.
As for the map, I think that we understood it fine. The 5-tiles/10-tiles argument has some merit but is reduced somewhat by the waterways. I personally had very high hopes for peaceful relations with you and we tried our best to convey that we wouldn't dispute your claim to the island.
As for a "defensive city" well I sure didn't see it that way. A defensive city does not steal wet corn away from an established city (however recently). A defensive city is also not planted to hit our city with 2-movers out of the blue. Had you moved your city over 1-2 tiles we probably would have had peaceful relations.
That is a load of shit. You have no sense of perspective at all, you're just greedy and blind. Because of the way you settled, the only food my city would have was that very same wet corn. After you beat me to the spot by 1T, what the fuck did you expect me to do? Settle a foodless city? In contrast, your city already had a food resource, the grassland cow. You just did not want to share and don't want to say that because that doesn't fit in with your narrative of me being this villain who "stole" a wet corn from an "established city" ().
And yes, the city was defensive. That was one reason I didn't settle on the coast, so that it couldn't be boated. The primary purpose of that site was to maintain vision in Anxious via the mountain to stop you from boating my core from out of the fog. If I had settled 1W, I'd have risked losing both the corn (which you could have double-teamed with a city 2S or 2S1E of it) and the mountain and be left with a pointless, shitty city. But, I needed to be sure I could defend myself from the east and south because I had hostile borders from the north and west as well, so I planted where I did. I really don't think planting 1W would have done me any good either; from reading your thought processes, you'd have eventually convinced yourself to take that too.
Quote:Then there's that little advance that you made with the axe when you could see into our city via mountains. That's open hostility and I'm not sure why you felt that we should not see you as a threat or risk after that.
And yet, I moved it back, didn't raze your city, and never even made an agressive move towards it again. This is just pointless justification, especially after I continued to send deferential deals AFTER YOU DECLARED WAR. I was pretty pissed you settled where you did after you saw my settler, but I tried to work together with you because Commodore was snowballing out of control.
Quote:All of the above should have been obvious to you. What would be less apparaent is how much your city plant costed us. Once you planted there, and particularly so close which equates to threatening, we were unable to shut Borsche off of our landmass. So you really cost us a big regional chunk.
It cost you nothing. Absolutely nothing. Your continued banging your head against the wall, suiciding troops, losing workers, and nuking your GLH ICTR for a dozen turns (worth something close to 500g in total) before you got them from retep - your own actions is what cost you your resources. You got a stupid narrative stuck in your heads and got tunnel-vision on a goal without stepping back and thinking about the cost/benefit to your actions. Also, you weren't prevented from shutting off Borsche at all. First of all, you had the southern route. Second of all, you had first-ring control of the wines... so the path to Borsche wasn't actually sealed off at all there either? What on earth are you talking about, being unable to shut off Borsche from your landmass? Didn't you in fact kick him out with Black Seminoles having as large of a garrison as it ever did? And how does a single city threaten an empire anyways? No fucking perspective at all. One size-1 city by itself couldn't produce enough in the ancient age to threaten your contiguous land-based road network and once we had OB you could have just kept a sentry unit in there to completely eliminate any chance that I could ship in a large horse-based attack force, at least until the Industrial era or whatever.
Quote:Yes, you gave us a good deal on the city trade. Was that deferential or would it be fair to say that you could not have successfully defended it? Regardless, it was a good move on your part and I personally felt no further hostility towards you.
I could have successfully defended it, yes, although that would have completely cost me the island when Commodore invaded (he invaded sooner than I expected and I lost it anyways). The only reason I was willing to make such a deal was a.) to save the units to save the island and b.) I thought that the threat of being able to boat your own capital would have been a more effective deterrent against you boating mine because the more defensive approach was getting me nowhere with you. Its funny you say you that you "felt no further hostility towards me" because I considered the deal to be you bullying me out of the city straight-up (I could see your invasion force because of the mountains, if you didn't know), and would have certainly taken revenge if I had half a chance. The reason felt the game was hopeless and quit was primarily because of you guys, not just Commodore.
(July 2nd, 2015, 07:50)MindyMcCready Wrote: I really don't understand how gifting you a galley can be considered an insult.
Because it came without units?
I see. So anything less than a galley full of free units is an insult to you. I hope that you realize how this sounds.
Maybe 5T wasn't really enough. There are between 1-2 tiles of waterways between us so it can't be as totally crazy as you're making it sound.
For example, we're going to bring in 30-units over to Borscheland with 5 galleys over 2T or 3T.
(July 2nd, 2015, 16:43)GermanJoey Wrote:
(July 2nd, 2015, 07:50)MindyMcCready Wrote: As for a "defensive city" well I sure didn't see it that way. A defensive city does not steal wet corn away from an established city (however recently). A defensive city is also not planted to hit our city with 2-movers out of the blue. Had you moved your city over 1-2 tiles we probably would have had peaceful relations.
That is a load of shit. You have no sense of perspective at all, you're just greedy and blind. Because of the way you settled, the only food my city would have was that very same wet corn. After you beat me to the spot by 1T, what the fuck did you expect me to do? Settle a foodless city? In contrast, your city already had a food resource, the grassland cow. You just did not want to share and don't want to say that because that doesn't fit in with your narrative of me being this villain who "stole" a wet corn from an "established city" ().
And yes, the city was defensive. That was one reason I didn't settle on the coast, so that it couldn't be boated. The primary purpose of that site was to maintain vision in Anxious via the mountain to stop you from boating my core from out of the fog. If I had settled 1W, I'd have risked losing both the corn (which you could have double-teamed with a city 2S or 2S1E of it) and the mountain and be left with a pointless, shitty city. But, I needed to be sure I could defend myself from the east and south because I had hostile borders from the north and west as well, so I planted where I did. I really don't think planting 1W would have done me any good either; from reading your thought processes, you'd have eventually convinced yourself to take that too.
And yet, I moved it back, didn't raze your city, and never even made an agressive move towards it again. This is just pointless justification, especially after I continued to send deferential deals AFTER YOU DECLARED WAR. I was pretty pissed you settled where you did after you saw my settler, but I tried to work together with you because Commodore was snowballing out of control.
Joey,...are you just here to throw mud? Just because in-game Mindy didn't like in-game Joey's city plant is not really a reason to go attacking and name-calling, alright? You're obviously frustrated but please do what you can to curb that stuff inside this thread.
There are no good guys and bad guys in this game so I'm really not trying to paint you as "the villian". I'm offering only "the world according to Mindy" with respect to how I see the tension developping and nothing else. Truth, like beauty, resides in the eye of the beholder.
As to your points:
-Greedy? Sure. This is a game of land and power. Guilty as charged. Nevertheless, I'm going to refer to it as ambitious as I'm sure that you qualify yourself while grabbing Elkad's land.
This is how I saw it play out:
-Your settler was moving East when we met you. You also had 'ambitions'.
-Your axe moved up on us. You've now displayed yourself to be both ambitious and opportunistic. I will not possibly believe that you had an attack of conscious after stepping up to our border. Instead, I belive that HAK rushed in troops and we then had peace of the gun between us. You didn't "not raze our city" because you were being a nice, peaceful guy so I'm a little perplexed as to why you think that we owed you good in-game feelings.
(July 2nd, 2015, 16:43)GermanJoey Wrote: If I had settled 1W, I'd have risked losing both the corn (which you could have double-teamed with a city 2S or 2S1E of it) and the mountain and be left with a pointless, shitty city. But, I needed to be sure I could defend myself from the east and south because I had hostile borders from the north and west as well, so I planted where I did. I really don't think planting 1W would have done me any good either; from reading your thought processes, you'd have eventually convinced yourself to take that too.
I can't honestly say how things would have played out had you settled 1W or 1SW. There was rice there as well as lake tiles that would have given you equal food with a lighthouse. We were debating razing and replanting there for that reason on the assumption that the city would be size3 by the time we took it.
Speaking of pointless, shitty cities,...Bedazzled. That city could not 1T your city. That city did not take any food resources. I imagine that had we moved that ciy 1NW to put that wet corn in the 1st ring, you would have just let that slide? It's just one wet corn after all. Or would you instead have 'bullied' us out of the city believing our plant to be aggressive and a threat and a grab of 'your' resources? Answer this honestly and we can have a discussion about what is a defensive plant. In my mind Bedazzled is a purely defensive plant existing only to keep us safe. If you wanted genuine good relations between us a 'real' defensive plant on our mainland would have gone a long way. As I said, I felt no further dispute with you after that one issue was solved.
(July 2nd, 2015, 16:43)GermanJoey Wrote: It cost you nothing. Absolutely nothing. Your continued banging your head against the wall, suiciding troops, losing workers, and nuking your GLH ICTR for a dozen turns (worth something close to 500g in total) before you got them from retep - your own actions is what cost you your resources. You got a stupid narrative stuck in your heads and got tunnel-vision on a goal without stepping back and thinking about the cost/benefit to your actions. Also, you weren't prevented from shutting off Borsche at all. First of all, you had the southern route. Second of all, you had first-ring control of the wines... so the path to Borsche wasn't actually sealed off at all there either? What on earth are you talking about, being unable to shut off Borsche from your landmass? Didn't you in fact kick him out with Black Seminoles having as large of a garrison as it ever did? And how does a single city threaten an empire anyways? No fucking perspective at all. One size-1 city by itself couldn't produce enough in the ancient age to threaten your contiguous land-based road network and once we had OB you could have just kept a sentry unit in there to completely eliminate any chance that I could ship in a large horse-based attack force, at least until the Industrial era or whatever.
As I said, this part would not be obvious to you. Yes, your city plant did cost us. We had our settlers laid out, we had started to make roads in order to cut off Borsche's imminent claim.
After the 'ambition' and 'opportunism' you displayed (again, from my perspective) we decided that we couldn't plant our next city south of Anxious as we had originally planned since you, if you were going to be further ambitious or opportunistic, could easily fork our 2 cities. You were aggressive Zulu after all. There were mountains and lake cutting us off from the rest of that area. So by planting that one city we then had no chance of beating Borsche to that region without taking an unwise level of risk since all of our roads and development were now in the wrong direction.
So that's why you got the war dec. We hoped that if we swept your city quickly enough we could keep you off the land but more importantly not lose 3 city sites to Borsche. You shut us down to be sure and Anxious was a virtual stump thereafter since we felt that we needed to maintain a strong garrison.
As to the goal not meeting "cost-benefit", well that's a function of how you value certain things. Personally, I place a very high value on the ability concentrate miltiary in one direction without taking an undue level of risk. I can see that you obviously value things differently from the positioning of Creole Osccola. Your loss of the island to Master Commodore may be a symptom of your valuation. In contrast to your play (no doubt in part due to the map), we worked very hard to get and then maintain chokepoints financial cost be damned. A waterway is one hellofa chokepoint so our conflict arose due in part to our different valuations.
As far as TGLH goes,...well if your mood improves you'll probably get a chunkle out of how that came about. :LOL:
(July 2nd, 2015, 16:43)GermanJoey Wrote: I could have successfully defended it, yes, although that would have completely cost me the island when Commodore invaded (he invaded sooner than I expected and I lost it anyways). The only reason I was willing to make such a deal was a.) to save the units to save the island and b.) I thought that the threat of being able to boat your own capital would have been a more effective deterrent against you boating mine because the more defensive approach was getting me nowhere with you. Its funny you say you that you "felt no further hostility towards me" because I considered the deal to be you bullying me out of the city straight-up (I could see your invasion force because of the mountains, if you didn't know), and would have certainly taken revenge if I had half a chance. The reason felt the game was hopeless and quit was primarily because of you guys, not just Commodore.
Let's just say that you couldn't have defended the city within the confines of reasonable play and leave it at that. We had 11 cats in the area and we were pretty determined to take the city. Before we could go empty out our land and head to Borscheland, in the hopes of keeping up with Master Commodore, we needed to be fairly certain that we weren't going to be stabbed in the back. You may well have had certainty of your intentions but we did not.
I can say, however, that if I could have wished you into doing my will, then both of our games would have been better had you taken full claim to the island while we took full claim to our landmass.
(July 2nd, 2015, 16:43)GermanJoey Wrote: The reason felt the game was hopeless and quit was primarily because of you guys, not just Commodore.
I think that you need to work on that glass chin Joey. :LOL:
We disputed over 1 city. We never threatened or laid any type of claim to that island until it was obvious that we weren't going to move you in the short term. We accepted handing over 200g and our city when we could have taken Burning Spears by force. We had a point of contention while you were farandaway the GNP leader - for those reasons we didn't owe you open borders.
I would like to ask the both of you to discontinue this back and forth "grudge match" in my thread. I meant to post something after GJ's last post, but was busy yesterday....otherwise I would have nudged Mindy to not come up with the above rebuttal. I have done my best to avoid name-calling, being obnoxious and rude, etc....and would appreciate if the two of you did the same. GJ if you really feel the need to do so, please do it in your own thread or the lurker thread. I would rather not have my thread bombarded with such stuff. I have no RL ill-will or grievances with anyone. I have enough crap going on in my own life (just like you Joey) that I don't need to feel stressed out or like I'm being screamed at in this game thread.
Thank you.
Back to the game....I quickly logged in to check something to discover....
Commodore gave the city (that was Black Seminoles) back to Krill in a peace treaty. retep and Commodore also signed Peace the same turn. So that at least locks in that I am definitely not going to be even considering attacking MC at the near future.
Also, noticed that MC moved his Sentry Knight to the border by Sore...I'm guessing so that he could see what units I have in Sore. Probably wanting to make sure I wasn't building a pile of units to move in and attack him.
That's it for now. When the turn eventually rolls, I might be able to play today, but likely won't get to it until tomorrow morning since we'll be busy doing stuff today and tonight.
Wow, weird. I have no idea how to interpret MC's actions. Maybe he just got nervous between MK, retep and your 7 whips and made a hasty decision? I heard that Dtay doesn't like "3s".
-Did you want to resettle Bedazzled? MK <> GJ so there's no past history for better or worse. MK might see no reason to permit us that city. It probably doesn't offer us any benefit given the culture reset.
The city south of Dragon Slave seems a little too high risk and we have better things to do with a settler now.
If MC doesn't have OB with MK,... then a navy will have to come through the spot 2N2W of Hungry so we might want to park our Trieme there.
Last point. The Trieme down south,...that unit will need to spearhead a galley movement in the south waters during the war. We would probably move from McDonalds to FiveGuys via galley.
(July 3rd, 2015, 10:13)HitAnyKey Wrote: I would like to ask the both of you to discontinue this back and forth "grudge match" in my thread. I meant to post something after GJ's last post, but was busy yesterday....otherwise I would have nudged Mindy to not come up with the above rebuttal. I have done my best to avoid name-calling, being obnoxious and rude, etc....and would appreciate if the two of you did the same. GJ if you really feel the need to do so, please do it in your own thread or the lurker thread. I would rather not have my thread bombarded with such stuff. I have no RL ill-will or grievances with anyone. I have enough crap going on in my own life (just like you Joey) that I don't need to feel stressed out or like I'm being screamed at in this game thread.
Thank you.
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