Holy Warriors - Civilization 5 (BNW) Succession Game

[timmy827]

Got it, aiming to play Wednesday evening pacific time. Plans....

Big question: who do we attack first? The current workers are roading towards Iro but could easily change course to Marrakech. Morocco still on two cities . We have 3 trebs and 1 musket, I can buy 2 more units (think musket/musket, but maybe musket/cannon) in about 5 turns, so I might just get them in position to start the war. 6 units enough? I guess thawk was suggesting more for capitals...

If we attack Iro, I think we annex Onondaga, raze Grand River, leave him Buffalo Creek. (Rome took one of his cities last set)
Although, are the worse warmonger penalties for razing a city opposed to anything else?
+Onondaga has 2 new luxuries
-probably a harder fight, Morocco last in soldiers and Iro cities are packed tight

If we attack Morocco, take Marrakech and leave him Rabat.
+Stonehenge and Colossus both decent captures
+can run the more lucrative sea trade routes with Divinity
+easier fight
-no new lux


I don't think there are any diplo +/- to the choice right now. Rome-morocco friendship no longer, and no one at war or denounced Iro.

Tech: Think we research the Metallurgy line next. Oxford Fertilizer? Or should we oxford something cheaper on the rifling path?
Compass (trade route) might be useful but the spy can steal it so not planning to tech it.

Builds: Cap finishes grand temple -> market +lighthouse (order TBD) -> oxford. Think rest of the cities go workshops after their current ones. After my turnset, we may or may not be able to squeeze in Ironworks before we start capturing cities, but it's not crucial. Similarly I think we let the national epic go.

Gold: I think it is worth pledging protection of Geneva and sending 250 to Geneva for an alliance halfway through my set. (we will win a faith quest soon). More faith, and their Whales will WLTKD 2 cities.
I don't think we can do another research agreement. (the one from Casear will finish this turn). Need to save for courthouses.

Policy & Great People:
prophet on Moscow
bulb the writer soon (think our cpt will decrease after the golden age)

Similar bulb vs settle debate on the next great scientist (due midway through my set).

What policy to take (this turn)? Obviously we want the 'buy industrial units' but if we go straight there I think we get it well before the needed tech (Rifling), and the one on the way (religious tolerance) is useless to us. Theocracy is weak but at least does something in the meantime. I think if we go that route we still finish Piety not-too-far after rifling, but hard to say. (I guess that assume oxford->fertilizer. )


EDIT: I think the general principle from reading civfanatics on conquering:
puppetting sucks now as you still get the tech cost penatly
annex large cities (capitals, and maybe size 8+? maybe can annex a smaller city if it has a new lux?), planning to buy the courthouse
otherwise burn down
+incorporated Yuris point about not alienting the AIs via wiping out civs, at least for the early wars

[Ichabod]

Well, I already decided on my own during my turnset about who to attack first. Rome came with a proposal that I couldn't deny on turn 144, after they made peace with Iroquois, taking Akwesasme:





So, I chose the "give me 10 turns to prepare" option. That's why I roaded on the direction of Morocco. I think we should raze Rabat and keep Marrakesh, buying a courthouse ASAP. I don't care about diplo penalties that much, we only need to keep Rome on our good side, since they are a great buffer between us and the other civs (unrelated question, is "us" right here or should I use "we"?), and Rome will be attacking with us. We can take care about not elliminating the next Civs, like Iros and Sweden/Russia, but Morocco's two cities have to go, IMO.

Seriously, after this border pop, we are completely surrounded by Rome:



Rome is playing a good game. But if we keep them allied until all other civs are conquered, it'll be trivial to alpha strike their Capital for a win.

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I messed up big time while buying a missionary this turnset. First, I bought it from Devotion instead of the Capital, losing the extra spread. And, that ended up not mattering, becuase I lost that fool to a barb, while trying to reach Vilnius:



Perhaps someone wants to try and free it from the closest barb camp...

On other religious news, I used one spread of the GPro in Stockholm, but it wasn't enough to get it to convert (we only got 6 followers). After that, I sent it to Moscow, which was a messy thing, due to a lot of swedish units blocking the way...

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I've built an Academy with the GSci, on the tile T-Hawk suggested:



I saved the Great Writer to be used after/during the GA, for the culture bonus. I saw no benefit in rushing the next SP for a few turns. I think we can go for Theocracy first, since we'll have the Great Writer to speed us along to the next SPs (and probably another GW after that too).

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I prioritized Universities as builds all around and food for growth, especially in Divinity and Piety. I worked the scientist specialists as soon as they became avaiable.

Capital went Notre Dame -> Temple -> Colosseum (for Circus Maximus to boost our happiness for the next conquests) -> Grand Temple. Devotion went HE -> Armory, so we focus all military buildings on one city.



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Random notes:

*I promoted the purchased Trebs to boost against open terrain, since almost all Iro and Morocco cities are on open terrain. I bought units when there were risks of birthing a GPro and wasting all our accumulated faith.

*After Gunpowder, we got a Spy. I'm not exactly sure about what to do with them and how they work, so I've sent him to Marrakesh, to give us some vision for the war.

*I renewed the DoF with Rome.

*Monaco wants a new Natural Wonder, which I think we'll find eventually. Vilnius also wants Cocoa... Man, when we get Cocoa, we are in for a big boost in influence. No dice during this turnset, though.

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Things to decide:

*What to pick for our next SP?

*Do we keep using TRs for food/production? Perhaps using some of them for gold would make sense nowm, because our gold production is really stagnating and the building/unit costs are starting to ramp up.

*I'm not sure about what to do with our workers. Some of them are fortifying in tiles waiting for the next cultural expansion, I preroaded some tiles too (not finishing the roads to get no cost for now).

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Pictures:

Barbs in the end of the world:



Road to Rabat:



Overview:



Demos:

[timmy827]

OK, biggest decision made for me, I like it!
Does the war declaration automatically happen on 154? Or does Caesar come back to us wtih a prompt? I've never used that feature. We might not quite have the oomph to really attack yet, but if Caesar sends in some forces maybe?

EDIT: I might do trade routes for gold now. Our core cities are running somewhat low on builds, and might be important to have the gold for courthouse rushing over more hammers in developed cities. Good point to bring up since all 3 reset during my turns. What does everyone else think?

[T-hawk]

I've never used the "Give us 10 turns" option, how does it work? Do we auto-declare on the 10th turn?

*I promoted the purchased Trebs to boost against open terrain, since almost all Iro and Morocco cities are on open terrain.

This doesn't matter, the terrain promotions don't apply when attacking a city. Notice it says "against UNITS in open/rough terrain". I usually lean in favor of the rough promotion since that's when you need it more.

*After Gunpowder, we got a Spy. I'm not exactly sure about what to do with them and how they work, so I've sent him to Marrakesh, to give us some vision for the war.

Spies steal tech. Who's most advanced besides Rome, who we don't want to anger?

*Do we keep using TRs for food/production? Perhaps using some of them for gold would make sense nowm, because our gold production is really stagnating and the building/unit costs are starting to ramp up.

Keep them on production, mostly to make sure we get happiness wonders, will help with Circus Maximus too. Let gold stagnate, gold sucks in this game.

*I'm not sure about what to do with our workers. Some of them are fortifying in tiles waiting for the next cultural expansion, I preroaded some tiles too (not finishing the roads to get no cost for now).

Keep a couple with the army, for combat road duty. The other thing surplus workers do is make human walls to block invading Great Prophets. Seriously, that works, as stupid as it is.

We have 3 trebs and 1 musket, I can buy 2 more units (think musket/musket, but maybe musket/cannon) in about 5 turns, so I might just get them in position to start the war. 6 units enough? I guess thawk was suggesting more for capitals...

We'll need that cannon, 3 trebs aren't enough for a capital. One will die before they finish killing the city. Then the remaining two will barely outpace the city's regeneration each turn.

Tech: Think we research the Metallurgy line next. Oxford Fertilizer? Or should we oxford something cheaper on the rifling path?

Oxford Dynamite for Artillery is the standard play for conquering. Rifles aren't super important, siege is where the real military breakpoints are. Although it may not be feasible to delay Oxford that long against conquered lack-of-universities. So just Oxford whatever gets towards Dynamite the best, if that's Fertilizer.

EDIT: I think the general principle from reading civfanatics on conquering:
puppetting sucks now as you still get the tech cost penatly
annex large cities (capitals, and maybe size 8+? maybe can annex a smaller city if it has a new lux?), planning to buy the courthouse
otherwise burn down

Unless a relevant rule has changed, always puppet first for the resistance period. Annexing does no good unti after resistance ends, but hits you with the happy penalty. After resistance, can decide on annexing.

[yuris125]

The leader you promised to team up with in a war in 10 turns comes to you in 10 turns and asks to honour the promise. You can tell him to stuff it, which obviously causes a diplo penalty

[DaveV]

...we only need to keep Rome on our good side, since they are a great buffer between us and the other civs (unrelated question, is "us" right here or should I use "we"?)

I think "us" is right, but I would say, "between the other civs and us." It reads more smoothly to me, and follows the rule of putting yourself last ("my friends and me", "you and I", etc.).

[Ichabod]

We don't necessarily have to war Morocco. Might as well just declare when Rome asks us to and prepare to attack Iros after that. I just think that it makes sense to go for Morocco first.

[timmy827]

Oxford Dynamite for Artillery is the standard play for conquering. Rifles aren't super important, siege is where the real military breakpoints are. Although it may not be feasible to delay Oxford that long against conquered lack-of-universities. So just Oxford whatever gets towards Dynamite the best, if that's Fertilizer.

Yeah, its about 50 turns of research until we could Oxford Dynamite. The RA and possibly bulbing the great scientist might bring that down to 40 but that's still too long.

BUT, we have a big problem with eras. Originally I was thinking take Fertilizer not just for itself, but for Industrial city state bonus.
Our muskets and treb now cost 3x hammer cost in faith. Apparently they are subject to the same era-cost-ifnlation as missionaries and pagodas. I was not expecting that since the base hammer costs go up as well for more advanced units...
That would mean 900 faith for a rifle (which we may skip anyways) and 1000 faith for an artillery. Just entering the industrial will raise muskets from 450 faith to 600 and cannons from 540 to 720 I think.

Also, Mandate of Heaven is useless for us. Now that I read the fine print, it does say "religious units" but I sure missed that before, and I bet rest of the team did too (it seemed we were all in agreement this was a key policy).

This makes things MUCH harder than I thought. It's drastic enough I wonder if we should relax the variant rule on upgrades some? Any other ideas?

[Ichabod]

Well, it was supposed to be difficult!

It may take longer than we previously thought, but I enjoy the challenge.

Can we conquer Morocco and Iroquois soon? By razing and capturing their cities, we can get 2 of the World religions under control. We will receive a GPro when we finish Piety and I think we need to aim to get another one from faith (2 perhaps?) before that. With those GPros, we can definetely control Russia's religion, giving us quite a lot of faith per turn. We'll always have more advanced units + better promoted units than the AI, so I think we can defeat them, with proper play. Ah, we should also invest in military ideologies, to further boost our units strenght.

Perhaps we'll need to spam cities later, to increase the faith output. Anyway, we'll have to find ways to manage it.

Right now, I think top priority should be to take Iros and Morocco out of the picture, to get rid of those annoying religions. Getting rid of Russias religion through GPRo is another key objective. After that, I think we should focus on taking down Portugal (and probably Brazil, which is close and weak), using our tech/military advantage (if we still have it), since they are far away and it'll be annoying to do so later. Finally, Russia -> Sweden -> Rome.

Russia will probably be annoyed with us pretty soon, so I'd say we should try to butter up with Sweden, to keep another ally.

Anyway, very nice find, Timmy! That is certainly very helpful for us to plan our strategies. Faith management will be way more tight than I previously expected. Now I realize why the musket I bought felt so expensive.

[T-hawk]

Militaristic CS are the other way for us to get units, and might be a more efficient use of gold than upgrades anyway. Might indeed want to switch trade routes over to gold, then. And maybe even think about Patronage.

There are also some Ideologies for units. Freedom has one for 6 free Foreign Legion melee units, Autocracy has one for double gifts from militaristic CS.

I don't have much opinion either way on adjusting the variant rules, will leave that up to the team leader.