Holy Warriors - Civilization 5 (BNW) Succession Game

[T-hawk]

Aha, good find. Puppet would be the key word there - puppets never count against your nat wonder requirements, whether in resistance or not. Assume Ironworks next in capital is a good idea then. Will find something to dump the 1 turn of production into before it's available.

[yuris125]

This weekend is Magic Origins pre-releases, I don't expect to have time to play until Monday. So there's no point swapping T-hawk and me

Agree with finishing Piety in social policies. Agree with stealing with the spy until there's nothing to steal. Like Ironworks in the capital as soon as we can build it

If we get the Word Council leadership, I think there's the World Religion option. Considering we spread our religion, other nations may vote with us on it, and it may end up being successful. But in general, I think World Council is rather useless, and the worst thing about it is that if it's your turn to make a suggestion, you have to offer something; unlike Civ4, there's no option to not have a vote

[T-hawk]

I didn't get to play on Saturday. I will take it Monday night.

[T-hawk]

First off, I don't do the whole "save today report tomorrow" thing. No bait and switch here.

Inherited turn: As I said, capital can't continue Oxford this turn, so what else to build. I went ahead and bulbed our GS now in order to start Zoos in all cities. It's inefficient but we're going to be seriously desperate for happy. This included Divinity, since Himeji Castle really doesn't do much of anything for us and isn't worth just one CS quest. I also decided to detour to Acoustics for the UB before continuing up to Fertilizer/Dynamite.



The bulb meant establishing the World Congress right now and needing to select a proposal. There's nothing that helps a warmonger. I picked Arts Funding because apparently a whole bunch of civs would be happy to have it. We don't really care either way about messing with Great Person production.

T161: Advance towards Marrakech. Sell a building in Rabat and keep doing that every turn.

Everyone gives us kudos for the World Congress proposal, except Iroquois who denounce us.

T162: Could move the 5 siege into position on Marrakech this turn, but hold off to kill their one comp bow just to be safe. We're back up to 0 happy with Rabat burning off pop, so I don't see a need to buy either CS (Almaty or Geneva.)

Acoustics finished (bulb got both Printing Press and most of this), on to Metallurgy since I'm still not sure if we wanted the industrial age at Fertilizer sooner or not.

Rome, Portugal, Russia, Brazil all denounce Iroquois and give us kudos.

Brazil stole Metal Casting from us. Yeah, that's like six techs back.

T163: Policy in for Religious Tolerance. So Divinity gets use of the Islamic pantheon, hooray, 1 culture per jungle tile.



Into position on Marrakech. I'm amused by both the Great Engineer running into the ocean, and Stonehenge sitting out in the harbor too.

Cathy asks us for war on Iroquois. I take the "yes in 10 turns" option since that seems just about right. She and Rome then both declare on Iros.



T164: Boom boom boom, we redline Marrakech with 4 siege units (okay, didn't need the 5th) and the cataphract captures it. That third icon is saying we captured two Great Works, which the game automatically bumped into the writing and art slots in Faith. It comes with Colossus (extra trade route), Stonehenge, granary, library, monastery.

Surprisingly, we didn't even end up unhappy. We gained 2 luxuries from Marrakech (marble and ivory) because for some reason we're selling both of our own. I think someone may have run into a bug - when a deal expires, the trade screen can erroneously show that you have 2 of a resource available when you really only have one and will lose it if you trade it away in renewing the deal. Anyway, Marrakech came with two ivory so I sell one to Catherine for full value.

Morocco is not eliminated. He must have another city but we can't see any anywhere. Demographics screen shows him at 6000 population, 6 food yield, and 7 land tiles.

T165: Rabat is gone, so the national wonder builds are open. I go ahead and take Oxford for Fertilizer since yeah it's going to be awkward to do it at any later time while conquering. I also start Pisa Tower in Devotion, since capital is going to be busy with Ironworks next.

Since unit faith costs will escalate, I spend some before advancing the era. Went for a crossbowman since we don't have any normal ranged units. Also should have thought of this sooner - I faith-purchase a scout to go embarked exploring, since we can't do any boats. Finally, I purchase an Inquisitor in order to de-holify Islam out of Marrakech.

T166: Capital starts Ironworks. Divinity starts a Cargo Ship to fill the trade route slot opened by the captured Colossus.

Oxford claims Fertilizer, which enters the industrial age. That means a second spy, which I send to Portugal as the next most advanced target after Moscow that isn't friendly Rome.

Brazil steals Education.



T168: We declare on Iroquois, a bit ahead of the schedule we'd expected. Move the siege into position on Grand River, capturing a worker in the process.

T169: Iros had a lot of units and shot back. I have to spend a turn clearing out units rather than attacking the city.

Ouch, Iros manage to concentrate fire enough to kill a cannon! But Almaty gives us a new cannon right at the same time! And it's at Marrakech so not far from the war.

T170: Have to spend another turn shooting Iro units instead of the city. The terrain configuration is quite awkward where the spaces 2S and 2SE of Grand River can't shoot at the city, so it's trouble to get that crossbow and a melee unit into the right places to work on the city.

Marrakech is out of resistance and has started building a Watermill as a puppet. I think that is OK so leave it as a puppet at the moment. Annex it if it starts building something we don't want, probably walls.

We have a tech steal available from Russia. Banking is the only option. We get it, but Catherine is showing a diplo minus that our spy was caught (but he didn't die.) I leave the spy in Moscow as it appears there is another tech beyond Banking to steal.

Divinity completed one cargo ship, which I rebase to Marrakech. And it starts building another cargo ship to fill the new trade route from Banking as well. I'm not sure if we want money or prod, but sea routes are indeed worth double land routes so we should do it that way. It is also possible to rebase a cargo ship from Divinity to Faith even though their oceans aren't contiguous.

Capital will complete Ironworks this turn. I guess Ceilidh Hall next, we'll need the happy eventually.

We have a Great Writer in Divinity, we didn't say anything about that coming. I guess just culture bulb (currently +499). There wasn't any need to do that just yet on my turnset as we're far from a policy. Actually, I think we want to save him until Ideologies are open.

Rome's stolen Islamic Great Prophet is still just chilling and not doing anything.

The workers at Marrakech are looking to complete a road east connecting through Rome's territory, so we can dismantle the longer one leading north to save money.

Devotion is micromanaged to grow this turn, but then swap some of the food tiles back to Faith.



This may be a bad idea, but I split off one trebuchet from the army to deal with this situation. That barb camp is really annoying, sending galleys at Divinity, which are also ruling out any sea trade route from the city. Once it clears the warrior, that scout can clear the camp. Note that the scout needs to stay in the water to provide visibility for the treb. The scout's job is then to continue exploring west by water whenever we get Astronomy.




We have money, but I really don't know what to spend it on. I don't think we need any city-states. I guess some kind of infrastructure in Marrakech when we do annex it?

[yuris125]

See it. Will try to play tonight as have evening busy for the rest of the week. Do you think we should sign peace with Morocco now? I don't think we need to look for and capture that last city

[timmy827]

Do we have a next target after Iroquois? (yuris probably wont start the next war, but may want to plan a bit). Sweden is #1 in soldiers, so maybe not them?

I think Morrocco's last city is north of buffalo creek/east of almaty, spotted culture on a whales there. Agree we don't need to kill them and may as well peace out.

I should have put this in but forgot world congress requires "propose now and vote on it in 30 turns" (jesus, terrible design). The proposal we should do was the "+culture from world wonders", it's not crucial but would help a bit with policies. Oh well.

Great People: Assume we take a scientist with leaning tower and just keep bulbing? (
agree on saving the writer and future ones for ideologies. we will still finish

Builds: Do we want a run at Forbidden Palace? If so capital should do it next...but, from our spy in moscow, Catherine has a great engineer coming in a few turns. So maybe its futile. Anyone know if the AI always engineers a wonder if available?

Think other wonders (Himeji, Globe) that have 1 CS quest, plus the pennies of faith, plus small benefit (denial on Himeji, and may actually be of use later if we get dogpiled; writer isn't useless either) are worth doing eventually, but lower priority than available happy buildings. As of this turn no one else has PP or gunpowder still. Same logic for Sistine (except no city state quest yet).

Assume we should annex Marrakech next turn (once Ironworks done)? Burn grand river, and peace Iro if we take their capital?

$: hold onto it. I could see wanting to buy factories down the road (for unlocking ideologies faster).
Tech: full speed towards dynamite. The russian and portugese spies can steal optics and astro, eventually.

EDIT:
really don't more losses, maybe heal up fully a few turns after taking grand river before moving on Iro capital.
Go ahead and clear that barb camp with the treb. But, I think I would be ok with us building a single defensive ship (keep it in our waters Divnity/Marrakech against barb ships) for the future since we cannot be

[yuris125]

I think the world congress is designed that way so that you can negotiate with other leaders for their votes. Not saying it's a good design, but there's some logic behind it

Sounds good on everything else (although I probably will have question after looking at the save )

[Ichabod]

Good turns!

Everyone gives us kudos for the World Congress proposal, except Iroquois who denounce us.

The Iros really dislike books and paintings...

I didn't know you could capture culture. When does that happen?

Surprisingly, we didn't even end up unhappy. We gained 2 luxuries from Marrakech (marble and ivory) because for some reason we're selling both of our own. I think someone may have run into a bug - when a deal expires, the trade screen can erroneously show that you have 2 of a resource available when you really only have one and will lose it if you trade it away in renewing the deal. Anyway, Marrakech came with two ivory so I sell one to Catherine for full value.

The Ivory is from a trade with Brazil extra sugar that you made long ago, T-Hawk, that has been renewed ever since (I think the logic was to trade for Rome's extra ivory). The marble sell was from Timmy so we would have enough money to buy Almaty (I think), with the caveat that we would capture marble from Marrakech anyway. So, no bug (just questionable play, perhaps ).

---

*I like the idea of getting peace with Morroco. Let them rot with their size 2 city somewhere, better than getting the ellimination penalty. And I see no benefit from destroying them either.

*Do we get culture from the stolen great works from Morocco? If that's the case, wait with the Great Writer until we spent 8 turns gaining this bonus, I think.

*Can you pillage with siege units to recover health?

*I think we should backfill most of our missing techs before going to the modern era. Reason being, the faith cost of units, apparently, keeps increasing each era you advance. So, industrialization could be a good tech target, to allow ideologies without having to increase unit cost.

*Perhaps use the money to buy another military city state? Not sure if there's another one, though...

*I think we should not renew any deals that sells horses. Some cavalry units could help and the gpt we get from them is neglegible right now.

[T-hawk]

Do we have a next target after Iroquois? (yuris probably wont start the next war, but may want to plan a bit). Sweden is #1 in soldiers, so maybe not them?

Well, the only real choices logistically are Sweden or Russia, and Sweden first is the better logistics out of those options. But we'll have at least 10 turns vs Iros before we have to pick.

Yes, peace with Morocco when we can, I forgot to look if it was available on my last turn.

I should have put this in but forgot world congress requires "propose now and vote on it in 30 turns" (jesus, terrible design).

The lag is so you have time to send diplomats and trade for their support. And it's 30 turns because Civ 5's designers never heard of any other number.

Great People: Assume we take a scientist with leaning tower and just keep bulbing?

Seems a good a plan as any. Don't think there's any wonder immediate and critical enough to warrant an Engineer, because of this about the FP:

Builds: Do we want a run at Forbidden Palace? If so capital should do it next...but, from our spy in moscow, Catherine has a great engineer coming in a few turns. So maybe its futile. Anyone know if the AI always engineers a wonder if available?

Forbidden Palace requires Patronage. Is Cathy in that? If so, we can't get it. If not, we could consider it with the next policy. I think we will have one more policy to burn beyond Reformation before we can get to ideologies, and I'm thinking Patronage is the best choice for that anyway.

Assume we should annex Marrakech next turn (once Ironworks done)?

No. We have no need to annex it. Leave it puppeted to save on anger. Our 12 happy is going to disappear very quick on Grand River's raze and Onondaga's capture. The only reason to annex is to gain control over its build orders. Right now a Watermill is fine, and I expect it will keep doing its own infrastructure like the workshop too.

$: hold onto it. I could see wanting to buy factories down the road (for unlocking ideologies faster).

Agreed on this one, save all our money to crash-buy factories into Ideologies the day we get Industrialization and coal. Factories are a quite efficient buy in their own right.

I didn't know you could capture culture. When does that happen?

I think it's some fraction (10%?) of the city's tourism production, which of course was minimal.

The Ivory is from a trade with Brazil extra sugar that you made long ago, T-Hawk, that has been renewed ever since (I think the logic was to trade for Rome's extra ivory). The marble sell was from Timmy so we would have enough money to buy Almaty (I think), with the caveat that we would capture marble from Marrakech anyway. So, no bug (just questionable play, perhaps ).

No, that is the bug I mean. Someone renewed the ivory to Brazil, thinking we had an extra because the screen showed 2 when we really didn't. Then we lost whatever other source we had (not sure if it was Rome or a CS.)

*Do we get culture from the stolen great works from Morocco? If that's the case, wait with the Great Writer until we spent 8 turns gaining this bonus, I think.

We definitely get the tourism so pretty sure we get the culture too. I don't think the game keeps track of the fact that the works were captured. I think we should wait with the Great Writer until Ideologies anyway.

*I think we should backfill most of our missing techs before going to the modern era. Reason being, the faith cost of units, apparently, keeps increasing each era you advance. So, industrialization could be a good tech target, to allow ideologies without having to increase unit cost.

Yes, target Industrialization after Dynamite. Dynamite is all we'll need to conquer through the rest of the world. Flight could help with mop-up but that's about all we need in the modern era.

[yuris125]

OK sorry guys, I'm having a crazy week at work, and have found myself too tired to play both last night and tonight. I can promise to play on Sunday at the latest, but can't promise earlier. Ichabod can you go before me please to keep the game moving?