[SPOILERS] This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land. But Mostly Mine.

[Dreylin]

To clarify ipecac's comment: TBS has no native Coal.

However, assuming TBS paid Joey for the Artist, why is this not OK in your eyes? After all you have spent a good period trying to signal to plako that you want to buy his "spare" Great People so that you can kick off another Golden Age and accelerate your own Victory attempt....

[Bobchillingworth]

Also, the argument with your Aluminum gift is that, when you gave it to the Aztecs, you sped up the space race and made it more difficult for TBS to pull off his culture win in time. If GJ gives TBS a GA, it's simply having the opposite impact. Of course you were being charitable when you donated Aluminum and weren't conspiring to spoil TBS's game, so perhaps GJ wouldn't be operating from a position of malevolence either.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

To clarify ipecac's comment: TBS has no native Coal.

However, assuming TBS paid Joey for the Artist, why is this not OK in your eyes? After all you have spent a good period trying to signal to plako that you want to buy his "spare" Great People so that you can kick off another Golden Age and accelerate your own Victory attempt....

No coal in that entire swath of land? Ouch. Is there any available through trade? I had at least one so I didn't give it another thought (or so I recall now, maybe I did scan the map at the time). I would like to think I would have made an offer but I can't be sure. Despite the obvious harm due to lack of the resource the timing makes it feel less urgent when it is not the last sprint to space. Did he ever get a source? I'll check when I play my turn if I can remember.

As for me trading with Plako, you are right. I have tried. To his credit he has not budged. I've only posted out of frustration because that dude is a brick wall. I admit an inconsistency here between my gripe with Joey and my own action.

Did he sell the GA? Don't answer, I ask rhetorically I suppose. I'd rather not know because I don't think the act is intended to help himself. I see any amount of gold being used to upgrade units to hit me anyway so no good will come of this in my view. The well has been well and truly poisoned for me about Joey and it is not likely to change.

Also, the argument with your Aluminum gift is that, when you gave it to the Aztecs, you sped up the space race and made it more difficult for TBS to pull off his culture win in time. If GJ gives TBS a GA, it's simply having the opposite impact. Of course you were being charitable when you donated Aluminum and weren't conspiring to spoil TBS's game, so perhaps GJ wouldn't be operating from a position of malevolence either.

I made the offer to the Aztecs without any regard for TBS. You act as if it has no impact on my own chances, which of course it does. I'm directly aiding my closest competition for the win (for all I know, at that time) and I know it harms my chances. But it is fair play in my book. I'm not looking to win any internet cookies or have an award named after me (Plako Perfect Gentleman of the Turn Timer Award from pb7 is still my all-time favorite) but I know if the map review process had been thorough this would not have been an issue. And I'd rather lose honorably than win cheaply.

Step aside from the effect of the act and look at the intent. Me: Fix obvious map error. Joey: ?? Obviously I don't know. Probably to end the game and have his preferred opponent win. Eh, kingmaking? It is very difficult to be sympathetic here regarding decision making considering precious interaction with Joey in this game. Giving (selling, otherwise making available) a GP in this type of end of game circumstance is not the same thing as giving a spare resource the mapmaker ought to have provided.

Lacking information about Joey's intent (that I'm not keen to hear anyway and which I'm sure I'll have heaved in my direction after the game, along with every other impossibly stupid bullshit red-in-the-face thing I could, should, did, or didn't do during the entire game) I think there probably isn't much more for me to say about this.

[Bobchillingworth]

To be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong with your aluminum offer. It was really admirable, actually.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

To be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong with your aluminum offer. It was really admirable, actually.

Thanks. I was starting to get the feeling that the lurkeratzzi had turned on me.

[Ceiliazul]

To be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong with your aluminum offer. It was really admirable, actually.

Thanks. I was starting to get the feeling that the lurkeratzzi had turned on me.

Not a bit. Game well played, and the alum gift was wuite sporting.

[BRickAstley]

To be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong with your aluminum offer. It was really admirable, actually.

Thanks. I was starting to get the feeling that the lurkeratzzi had turned on me.

Not a bit. Game well played, and the alum gift was wuite sporting.

Devil's Advocate was truly for me arguing a position I wouldn't normally take.

[ipecac]

What relevance is this to me? I haven't scanned the entire map to see who got screwed out of resources. I noticed OH/Fin lacked a critical resource and were the only relevant civ who would need it for a space race. I don't see how this is related in any way to providing a critical GA when a player is at the cusp of achieving a CV and may have difficulty producing the necessary GA for a bomb. Is this like saying that the map should have given TBS an extra great artist because he needs it to win? Very different thing than a player trying to cover for bad resource allocation.

It's quite simple, really. Both OH and TBS lack a critical resource that would cost them thousands of hammers that would greatly aid them in speeding their victory attempts. For OH, the benefit is more obvious, but clearly TBS is significantly affected in being thousands of hammers down in terms of military (fighters to intercept, navy, etc), building cultural buildings (either to set up a another culture city after one was destroyed or rebuilding damage by pesky spies), and commerce and commerce derivatives either through direct building or building gold followed running the slider.

Your helping OH only, unwitting though you may be of TBS's coal situation, only skews the race: you want to give OH aluminium to make a 'fair' race? Admirable. But TBS being thousands of hammers down does not make a 'fair' race - especially when he still has a non-insignificant chance of winning. Intent aside, it is quite possible that you have be the biggest kingmaker by aiding one competitor only and not the other. In this light, Joey's actions could be seen - whatever his motives - as effectively helping to correct a massive imbalance in the game caused by mapmaker's error, just like your own gift of aluminium to OH.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Am I to understand from this (which I disagree with but I'm getting tired of the subject very fast) that TBS has not had coal the entire time? And that he still lacks coal? By all means then, I should continue my charity and gift him mine.

He is attempting a victory condition that requires many thousand fewer hammers and beakers of investment. I suppose he will be ok. He also has neighbors who are effectively shielding him from interference while OH is getting spiked by dtay and my own issues with Krill and Joey are well documented. Who is making the effort to stop TBS? Only those with an interest in trying to win the game. If I had to choose my problem, I'd rather be resource limited than hamstrung by spiteful neighbors.

And I hate CV. The winner ought to be the strongest when the dust settles. I called CV as the most likely win condition ages ago but I think it is lame. Kudos to TBS for making the best out of a third place position but he ought to have been dog plied by his lame neighbors ages ago.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

To address the issue of fairness, that is the job of the mapmaker and those who would enjoy lurking a balanced, fair game. I did what I could do to address an issue I was aware of. I do not recall if TBS ever made a diplo offer for my coal though it is likely he has. I think I've been trading coal to dtay for ages for a super cheap rate, something like 10g/turn. But no one to my knowledge has stepped in at any point in the game to make a suggestion to the players about the absence of map resources and suggested a solution. Players operate in the dark with only limited information. It is beyond frustrating to have someone argue that I've in essence played kingmaker or done anything to throw the game one way or the other by my map correction gift to the Aztec civ. They're my neighbor and more tactically and strategically relevant for me to study for obvious reasons in game so it is not surprising that I am aware of their resource deficiency. Am I expected to put this level of study into an opponent impossibly far away who I cannot even deliver military force against due to other hostile players in the game? No. I hope you are similarly in WLP's, Molach's, AT's, or anyone else's thread telling them they are unfairly impacting the outcome of the game by not providing resources to address map unfairness, or by not doing anything because other civs attempting to win are facing either active or passive opposition from their neighbors.

Gah.