[SPOILERS] This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land. But Mostly Mine.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

And since you infer that Joey's intent is to correct my impropriety I I turn infer that the GA is a gift and not a sale. Is this correct? Is Joey doing other things to "correct" for my so-called kingmaking? If so, what, and to what extent? Are other players involved? Did we allow vassal states halfway through the game and I just didn't get the memo?

Tell me, what is the exact value of a 38th (give or take) great person if you don't have to invest the food yourself to fill up the GPP bar? Do you know how much food that is? How many turns of working a mature cottage or workshop with all the building multipliers the city has by this point in the game? Don't forget this makes any subsequent GP cheaper than it otherwise would have been.

No. A GP gift in this circumstance is not the same as a resource trade. Really this is frustrating enough to me to want to just be done with he whole game. I rather think Joey would prefer TBS to win than either me or OH/Fin for his own reasons. Perhaps he thinks the same of me and my aluminum gift but this was not he reason for the gift.

I just want to play the game, honestly and fairly. I'm tired of having to meta each turn. This is a shitty way to end a long, competitive, and mostly satisfying game.

[AdrienIer]

And since you infer that Joey's intent is to correct my impropriety I I turn infer that the GA is a gift and not a sale. Is this correct?

I think some people here have been talking too much but you're also misinterpreting them. Can you trust the lurkers on this issue ?

[ipecac]

Am I to understand from this (which I disagree with but I'm getting tired of the subject very fast) that TBS has not had coal the entire time? And that he still lacks coal? By all means then, I should continue my charity and gift him mine.

That would be great.

He is attempting a victory condition that requires many thousand fewer hammers and beakers of investment.

One would presume that going for CV would also have drawbacks too in addition to these advantages; otherwise almost all would go for it.

I suppose he will be ok. He also has neighbors who are effectively shielding him from interference while OH is getting spiked by dtay and my own issues with Krill and Joey are well documented.

An advantage mainly due, I think it fair to say, to TBS' diplomatic skill and meta-game play. And indeed, I do think TBS is okay after assistance from neighbours which offset the loss of thousands of hammers from lack of coal.

[ipecac]

No. I hope you are similarly in WLP's, Molach's, AT's, or anyone else's thread telling them they are unfairly impacting the outcome of the game by not providing resources to address map unfairness, or by not doing anything because other civs attempting to win are facing either active or passive opposition from their neighbors.

Hardly, since as far as I'm aware they're not complaining about GJ's play being unsportsmanlike or whatever; there is thus no reason to interfere.

It is beyond frustrating to have someone argue that I've in essence played kingmaker or done anything to throw the game one way or the other by my map correction gift to the Aztec civ.

The game situation is not conditioned on your emotions; it is indisputable that map correcting for only one of the two competitors has significantly skewed the game situation from what it otherwise would have been. As to whether you have been playing kingmaker: well, we'll have to wait till the end of the game to see.

[ipecac]

And since you infer that Joey's intent is to correct my impropriety

I did not.

Tell me, what is the exact value of a 38th (give or take) great person if you don't have to invest the food yourself to fill up the GPP bar? Do you know how much food that is? How many turns of working a mature cottage or workshop with all the building multipliers the city has by this point in the game? Don't forget this makes any subsequent GP cheaper than it otherwise would have been.

No. A GP gift in this circumstance is not the same as a resource trade.

Neither have I claimed that they were the same.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Diplomatic skill? Please. WLP is not Krill. And where were you to advocate for TBS at the time? If nowhere to be found, zip it and don't put this shit at my feet.

I don't like your face. Get out of my thread.

[Qgqqqqq]

BGN, no one thinks you ought to have gifted to TBS. Clearly that's not something that could be expected of you. Your Aluminium gift is something that is debateable, but clearly made in good spirits (and I think the lack of lurker opposition vis a vis TBS chances is more indicative of the fact that no one was seriously considering him for the win at the time, vs. now).

At the same time, I think calling it correcting a map failing is too far - it was a gentlemanly gift to honour the concept of a two-way race for space, but whilst the intention was honorable, the effect is nonetheless that other parties with a chance for the win have that chance reduced correspondingly.

Combined with the fact that you were happy to propose a prophet purchase, and I don't think that you can complain about other players enacting a similar trade. You've acknowledged this, to your great credit, to my mind, but you drew a distinction with regard to the intention, and I don't think you were justified to do that. You are biased on this matter (and have good reason to be) and your judgement of the relevant actions comes wholly from this bias leading you to assume/believe their intentions to be negative in a way you wouldn't hold Plakos to be.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I can agree with all of the above Q. It helps that I know the messenger is level-headed and a fair sport sort. My bias against Joey would admittedly be much less if I didn't find him so personally distasteful. I have attempted to be generous and conciliatory in dispute with him before now only to have him be even ruder to me after the attempt, so trying to be generous in spirit toward him when I do not have evidence to support this generosity is like trying to have you guys convince me that chewing gristle is tasty, good, and good for my health. You may be right that the action is ok from your better-informed and less-emotionally invested vantage point, but for me, because of that guy and his recent antics all over this site, it's always going to be a tough piece of gristle to chew.

I didn't appreciate the way ipecac framed the debate and don't know him at all so he wasn't the right messenger to come in here and tell me not only is gristle healthy and delicious but I must be a fool for not seeing its obvious quality. I could have been nicer yesterday to ipecac but I wasn't feeling generous given my recent act of generosity toward the Aztecs was being shat upon. So yeah, the messenger matters. Q, thanks for lending some credibility to the discussion. I (don't) look forward to seeing the other side of this after the game.

Aside, does Azteca think this discussion means an invasion is imminent? Because a little bad meta read would totally help beat TBS now.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Conspiracy theorists: So-called "tech problem" actually not related to GA melodrama.

Anyone possessing courage, submit for turn playing duty.

[Tasunke]

Eh ... I suppose I *could* play a few turns .... if that is what is required.