EARLY ALPHA - Name TBD

[WilliamLP]

Keshik -> 10 str, 25% withdrawal (2 base move, +1 w/Morale), 90 hammers, +25% prod w/ Iron. Req Guilds/Archery/HBR, and horses

Can I try PB18 again with that?

[RefSteel]

what is a late-game Alpha Strike?

Coy answer: this is a late-game Alpha Strike:


(Although the truly horrifying late-game version with your Coordination promotion would involve Mech Inf and Mobile Arty)

Proper answer: An Alpha Strike is a devastating first-strike executed immediately upon declaring war, before the enemy has an opportunity to respond. The term originates with (or at least was popularized during) the Cold War, where it was a contemplated strategy of nuking the other side's nuclear arsenals as the first move in all-out war, to minimize the enemy's capacity to respond in kind. Obvious (and thankfully) it was never attempted, but the threat of its being executed came close to destroying modern civilization on various occasions since both sides had to be prepared to identify a possible alpha strike and launch their own counter-strike in the brief interval between (potential-)launch and (potential-)arrival.

[Tasunke]

mech inf/ mob artillery start w/ coordinated.

only things upgraded from old keshik would b 3 move.


also, any GG unit can be 3move w/ morale (any version)

could even make a 3 move commando unit in base. just add GG to a base unit with high enough initial xp

[GermanJoey]

What are you trying to do with your mod? As in; why are you making a mod? IIRC you've said you haven't even played any MP Civ4 games in a very long time.

[Tasunke]

Several reasons. I've been working on a much more complex, in depth total conversion mod of BTS for some time.

Recently I've been finding vanilla Civ more interesting, especially if I could change certain 'always win' methods ...

I'm posting here b/c I don't want to let anything that is 'WTF OP' or otherwise broken into the final build ... and that is where the forum goers come in. (Ie, 3 move keshiks :P)

[RefSteel]

mech inf/ mob artillery start w/ coordinated.

only things upgraded from old keshik would b 3 move.


also, any GG unit can be 3move w/ morale (any version)

could even make a 3 move commando unit in base. just add GG to a base unit with high enough initial xp

Note Coordination would also make Musketeers 3-movers unless you changed their base stats from 2-move to 1-move + Coord. (Note in general that, while the threat of a GG 3-mover or Commando - or as many as your opponent has GGs - merely means you need real defenders instead of warriors in non-border cities, the real problem occurs when they can be mass-produced.)

The truth is though, I went for an extreme example that was probably not what Krill meant; what Brandenburg Gate does is allow the one player who builds it to conduct end-of-the-tech-tree-style alpha strikes much, much earlier in the game. Two-move attackers can perform quick strikes from Chariots onward, but they have limitations: Until the slow-movers behind them catch up, they get no defensive bonuses (except via certain UUs in their time) no bombardment, and - most importantly - no collateral. They are generally also vulnerable to anti-mounted defenders until tanks finally roll around. All of this goes out the window if you have Brandenburg Gate in your Heroic Epic city, pumping out a 2-move cannon every turn (and potentially drafting 2-move rifles as well...).

In the late game, a Commando pump can have some of that impact (but note siege can no longer take Commando in RtR, and getting enough XP on mass-produced siege is pretty unrealistic in base BtS) but setting one up requires a significant investment over the course of the game (potentially strating with trait selection, and continuing with the need to war and settle GGs in your pump city) with attendant opportunity costs -- and any player can acquire one (in principle) by making those investments. Brandenburg Gate can only be obtained by a single player and moves the logistical misery of defending against a potential 2-mover siege alpha-strike from all the way at the end of the tech tree back to Military Science.

[Tasunke]

Hmm ... I did somewhat overlook the Musketeer one, but I think it might be passable ... due to the Gate arriving in the Rifleman era.

As far as early siege ... hmm. I'm not fully certain. I could see an argument for it to be Gunpowder only, or, perhaps, to move the wonder later on in the tech tree .... unless we are just going to give it a different effect altogether. I will have to contemplate this.

[GermanJoey]

Several reasons. I've been working on a much more complex, in depth total conversion mod of BTS for some time.

Recently I've been finding vanilla Civ more interesting, especially if I could change certain 'always win' methods ...

I'm posting here b/c I don't want to let anything that is 'WTF OP' or otherwise broken into the final build ... and that is where the forum goers come in. (Ie, 3 move keshiks :P)

Well, what are those reasons? Most of your changes don't make any sense to me. You buff things that are already strong and nerf th ings that are already weak and then make other changes that wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. A lot of your changes seem to be about making industrial/modern era warfare more mobile and yet it is already insanely mobile; far, far more mobile than anything you're used to in FFH2. It's frustrating to deal with and takes a very long time to play war turns trying to account for the possibilities available to a huge, hidden stack that can warp dozens of tiles across the map in a couple turns and be supported supported by collateral that has an even longer range. What are you going for here?

[Tasunke]

Eh, FFH2 is a *LOT* more mobile.

But as I said I'll have to rethink some of my changes (primarily Brandenburg gate, etc) ...

and I appreciate your input.

Primary focus is, ofc, making a better transition between Rifle tech and Infantry tech .... bc in BTS (and every other mod) you suddenly not only double your Unit Strength, but also double your production. A bad combination imho, and not very historically accurate either. So the primary change is 1) moving earliest Power Plant to Electricity 2) separating Assembly Line into 'Auto Wpns' and 'Assembly Line', the rest just flows from there.

My total conversion mod takes this issue and adds a magnifying glass (making the time period larger, adding more units etc) and is primarily concerning the Industrial Revolution (1700 - 1920), with a WWII late-game followed by end-game 'ColdWar' units -> The mod's timeline officially ends in 1980.

With Early Alpha (Unnamed as of Yet) I plan on taking the theme of previous mod, and applying it to a much more balanced format (and trying to maintain balance in all other areas, so that I don't balance the Factory/Inf dynamic while at the same time unbalancing it in other areas).

The way in which I write (and in which I mod) is to first sort of 'pretend' to add a lot of things ... AKA just keep writing, writing, writing and writing. And then to systematically remove about 90% of the changes. The final version will be much more streamlined, and will look a lot more like 2.0.7.4/ 3.0.0.1 than it's change-log currently indicates.

[GermanJoey]

FFH2 is a lot more mobile than civ4 pre-Industrial era, sure, but FFH2 doesn't have railroads, ICBMs, submarines, mobile artilleries, carriers, etc. I get the impression that you haven't played a late-era MP BTS game before. Other than horse dudes with the Raiders trait (which I admit is absurdly mobile warfare), its not even close to comparable. I also haven't seen any FFH games featuring the massive fast-moving naval stacks that characterize late-era BTS games but then I'm not very familiar with FFH2 naval stuff beyond "cast Tsunami = win."

The transition from Riflemen to Infantry really isn't that big of a deal; the transition from Knights/Muskets to Rifles is much bigger I think. Steel -> Steam Power -> Railroad is just viable production-wise and military-wise as Corporation -> Steam Power -> AL. Both Cannons and Machine Guns can stop mass infantry pushes cold, especially with Cavalry support. Steel also enables Ironclads and Drydocks, the latter of which can be just as big of a deal as factories (and, temporarily, even more-so), and is 2 techs closer to Destroyers and Fighters. (Destroyers... now that is a true paradigm shattering unit.) Alternative tech paths are good as well... for example, in PB18 I think only a few players rushed AL, while just as many went for Railroad and others went for Communism, Physics, and Biology for their first main Industrial era tech targets. Similar deal in PB13 and PB22 AFAIK.

I'm looking at your changelog again and I just noticed your American Pioneer UU. What the fuck.