[SPOILERS] Donovan Zoi and AdrienIer: Slümhund Millionaires!

[Donovan Zoi]

Turn 177 - 1170 AD

Not much to report this turn. We were in a bit of a holding pattern waiting for more northern reinforcements to arrive, as well as a good stack of 28-30 units from Tasunke. You can see the Zulu Knights making their way to the frontlines in the upper right.

Kerkouane would eventually have 34 units guarding it and both allies had brought plenty of Cats to soft the Carthaginian stronghold (we had 7, Tas brought 6). By the looks of it, we were going straight for the jugular at Hadrumetum and would sort out the spoils afterward.




More good news was that our capital was now two turns away from a Great Scientist, with odds at 73%. I was looking forward to getting an Academy in order to boost our research for Military Tradition after Nationalism. Upgrading Knights to Currs would definitely come in handy on all contested fronts!

I was playing around with the slider during both these shots, but 0% research prevailed to get us over 1000g in savings for the first time. All of it would be used for Nationalism of course, plus a few upgrades.





Turn 178 - 1180 AD

OK so here is the turn where things got out of sorts with Tasunke. As the stalemate forces between all 3 parties grew, there was not much to report except for the slow advance on Hadrumetum. And last turn, Tasunke had done his part by advancing only one tile to protect his Knights.




Now this put us both 3 tiles away, so at first glance I should have advanced my stack now so that Tas could join at the end of the turn. I agonized about this a long time, even dozing off at the computer for staring at the screen for so long. Should I advance now or wait? In the end, I decided I would stay back for one more turn for a couple of reasons:

1. There is a distinct difference between turn order and battle order. Since Tasunke chose to engage Gavagai on the back side of the turn, that would mean that he leads the advance on the current turn and I fall in line to join/protect him on the next. If I lead, then I am eventually first to the hills east of battle and become Cat fodder while Tas arrives too late.

2. My moving troops out of Kerkouane this turn would not only make my closer stack vulnerable but would also put the city itself at risk. It’s hard to see at the bottom left of the screen, but there was a stack of about 10 Numids and 3-4 Knights that could have just meandered though both stacks (excuse me, pardon me) and recapture Kerkouane with no problem.

Being a no diplo game, there really was no way I could find to communicate my commitment to the Indio-Zulu superstack. And Tasunke’s stack had 4 Pikes, enough to dissuade Gavagai from leaving himself vulnerable in the aftermath of an attack on it. Plus at the outset of Gavagai’s turn, we were both nearly equal targets save some Garrison promos on Indian units. I just had to hope for the best that Tas would understand the mechanics of our situation so that we could prepare to deal the death blow to Carthage.

[Donovan Zoi]

The Age of Uncertainty [1190 - ???]

Turn 179 – 1190 AD

Alas, he didn’t.




I can only imagine what Tasunke thought when he logged in at the end of T178. Was he pissed that we had not joined his advance despite what I described earlier? I can almost see him being upset that we left his units vulnerable until you consider that Gavagai could have attacked Tas’ stack from 3S of Kerkouane and we still wouldn’t have been able to help. Regardless, Gavagai didn’t attack either of us last turn. So why not press on?

Instead Tasunke chose to bail, sending all of his Knights to Dunkin Donuts, with his one-movers in tow just behind. It was pretty obvious what he planned to accomplish: using his OB with HAK, he planned to make an end run through friendly territory to land his Knight stack at the city of Leptis, Gavagai’s easternmost (and poorly developed at Size 3) city.

Wow, a bold move considering that our enemy had the movement advantage on us. To be fair, Tas did not have the EP intel that we had and there was no way we could relay it to him. Perhaps he could get away with it?

Our New GP Arrives!

And it’s….a Great Prophet?




Well, that hurts a bit for the short term but it does get us closer to our second GA. Unfortunately I had to stall the Heroic Epic in Chesapeake to build some garrisons just in case retep wanted to capitalize on our current distraction. And then worry if those garrisons are enough, because there is a chance we can lose Chesapeake to retep altogether the way the RNG has been treating us this game.


Turn 180 - 1200 AD

Each turn logging in brought with it the uneasiness of seeing if Gavagai had attacked our stack in Kerkouane. He has us outnumbered head to head and would likely be targeting us so if he didn’t have Tasunke pulling him south.

In fact, Tasunke had indeed made good on his plan to approach Leptis with a Knights-only stack, leaving Dunkin Donuts completely empty! To make things even worse, Gavagai had also anticipated this and had moved his WE’s SE out of Hadrumetum to reach the stack by road.

Sorry I don’t have any pics of the above, but upon seeing this I predicted total decimation of the stack and the liberation of Dunkin Donuts upon logging in next turn.

New Military Headquarters Emerges

Despite how grim things were looking, there was some good news in that the Heroic Epic was to be completed in Sainte-Foy next turn. This new training facility was selected to bring immediate aid to the frontlines from an efficient production center. Time will tell if I built it too close to the frontlines….




Taking Thaenae did give a quicker way of getting units to Chesapeake while our ships are busy looking threatening (and not much else) in the south. Just had to road one tile to get a nice 6-tile path between both cities.





Turn 181 - 1210 AD

As I predicted, Tasunke lost his entire stack just west of Leptis, with Gavagai emerging relatively unscathed. Dunkin Donuts was recaptured as well only to be razed by Tas on his portion of the turn.

Tasunke also had a defensive stack within his borders on the hill 3SW of MoM’s Fortress, but I am not sure how long it would be able to hang around….




The Inca Strike Back!

Has it really been 10 turns since Tas and Commodtay made peace in the north? Don’t answer that too quickly since I already know the answer.




After seeing how incredibly light the Zulu defenses were up in the north, the Inca began using their new toys (CANNONS!) to claim their former lands starting with Tas’ two easternmost cities. The effect on the minimap was devastating….



Dude, you will have to say that into his good ear….

Indian Revolt!

The developments of the last few decades had begun to take its toll on the Indian populace. Though they were courted with the most lavish gifts and abundant food reserves of the modern world, that was not enough to appease those that had cried out for more military protection and more advanced weaponry.

Well be careful what you wish for, my subjects, because guess what?

You are the ones you’ve been waiting for!




Not one to leave constituents hanging, I immediately issued new declarations for the draft (Slavery) as well as a tax to increase our science output (Mercantilism). That went over so well that the good people of India ended up rioting twice as long as the normally would have.

No seriously, I do hate when I no longer get 2 civics per turn of anarchy. Not that I would have planned it otherwise, but still....

Anyway, the walls did appear to be closing in on our heroes and we spiral forward into 1220 AD. Both retep and Gavagai had begun issuing drafts of their own, and Commodore was going to soon be a permanent problem in the east soon.

Will our heroes be able to maintain peace with the Aztecs on the island?

Will India be able to enlist the draft in time to avoid devastation on one or more fronts?

Will India secure Cuirassiers in time to flank us some Cannons?

Will Donovan be able to employ the legal team that made their case to the UN in ISDG: Naldorinho [Imperio] v. Realms Beyond to comb the small print and get him out of this dog of an alliance against Gavagai?

All this and more, coming up!

[Donovan Zoi]

In case anyone is up in arms about my last comment re: my alliance with Tasunke, I hope I have proven in the past that I am an above the board player saying this partially in jest. In fact, in a no diplo game, I am really not a huge fan of making deals through the diplo screen and have derisively labeled the practice:



However, due to momentary lapse in judgment I found myself roped into a couple of these. That said, I'd still like to present you with the details so that you can let me know if I am walking a fine line by even considering breaking an non-FA screen Iron for Iron deal, among other things. So here are the facts of the case:




1. Around 16 turns ago, I had an interest in putting Tasunke's mind at ease in order to reduce tensions between us so I offered him a Fish for Fish deal. Tasunke accepted and the deal is still present on the FA screen. Either party can cancel it at any time.

2. 9 turns ago, Tasunke offered me a Crab for Crab deal. Not knowing if it was any different, I accepted the deal under the assumption that it was just another way of presenting a Fish for Fish deal. That agreement can be cancelled next turn.

3. Around that same time, Tasunke also offered me an Iron for Iron deal with cities from both nations up for trade to signify the intended target of our alliance. That target was Gavagai, who was currently at war with HitAnyKey.

4.On the subsquent turn, Tasunke tried to lock on an FA-visible Iron for Iron only deal which I declined. To my knowledge, it's generally believed that alliance deals like this shoudl not be made public.

5. As of next turn (182), I will be able to cancel both the Fish and Crab deals with the intent of putting into question the presumed peace between India and Zululand.

6. As of next turn (182), there is a good chance that Tasunke will retreat his stack from Gavagai's frontlines so that he may respond to a new threat from the Commodore/dtay team.

I have strong reasons for wanting to broker peace with Gavagai. I also have my much less charitable reasons for wanting to take advantage of acquiring prime land from a vulnerable neighbor. It's also very likely that military developments between myself and retep and/or Gavagai will render this entire discussion moot in the coming turns. But based on the premises above, I still have a list of questions designed to educate me on how I can maintain my integrity when considering actions based on the above circumstances.

Q. In an open ended and non-FA Iron/Iron deal, when can such a deal be considered null when not moderated by an in-game duration requirement?

Q. If it happens, is a frontline retreat by Tasunke reason enough to consider the Iron deal null and void so that I may attempt peace with Gavagai?

Q. If I cancel both peace deals with Tasunke next turn, is there a grace period that should be given such as 5-10 turns before I could consider attacking Tasunke?

Q. As convoluted as it sounds, is there any way to honor the Iron deal with Tas by maintaining war with Gavagai, but still be free to attack Tas either immediately or after an arbitrary grace period? (No I am not a monster, and am really not considering such a silly thing, but figured I would put it out there for clarification anyway.)

Lurkers, I Need Your Help!

I expect and cherish Adrien's response to these questions, but our predicament kind of forces me to cast a wider net on this one. I would really like to gain some insights from those who may have worked through such dilemmas/temptations in other games. Up to this point, I have set aside my incessant need for positive reinforcement and adulation in this thread so that I may one day cash in my chips when it really counts. This is that time, lurkers, so let's talk about this!

[GermanJoey]

There's no such thing as a grace periods before war can be declared after making deals in these games, no. There's a ten turn enforced peace period that occurs when you and another player go to war and then sign a peace treaty (not a cease fire), but that's it.

You don't need to provide any justification to going to war to someone, not even yourself. Likewise, you don't need to provide any justification for not going to war with someone, or for taking peace. You're free to play however you want within the rules, but just be prepared for the same from everyone else.

[GermanJoey]

To answer your questions specifically:

1.) Straight up Iron for Iron means nothing in-game beyond removing one iron resource each for trade from each player. To some players, that's all Iron for Iron will ever mean. To others, it generally implies feelings of a temporary alliance on the turn that it is offered against a common foe. Of course, it can mean other things in different contexts; if accompanied by the demand for some city or resource, it could mean a threat of war if the demand is not met, or, for another example, if accompanied by troop movements away from your border it could be the offer of a more permanent alliance in a shared dire situation. In any case, its up to you to try to feel out what your deal actually means to the other person. IMHO, that's part of what makes AI-diplo interesting!

2.) Again, you don't need any justification. This is not a diplo game.

3.) No. In fact, you could cancel them this turn by declaring war with him.

4.) No. As soon as you declare war, your treaty would be canceled. If you tried maintaining war with Gavagai as a way of "honoring the deal," I'm quite sure neither of them (or anyone else) would understand what the hell you were doing and would just think you were insane for being at war with all your neighbors at once.

[AdrienIer]

Q. In an open ended and non-FA Iron/Iron deal, when can such a deal be considered null when not moderated by an in-game duration requirement?

If I understand everything right you didn't send back the iron to iron offer (to signify "I don't want to accept it but I agree with your alliance offer"). So there is no actualy iron/iron deal. Also, it's a non-diplo game, you haven't signed a NAP you just signified to each other that attacking Gav together would be beneficial. That's it. Now that the circumstances have changed there's no need to stick up to it. The only question you should ask yourself is whether attacking Tasunke is good for you in the long term. You lose an ally but you might win big. I say take it.

Q. If it happens, is a frontline retreat by Tasunke reason enough to consider the Iron deal null and void so that I may attempt peace with Gavagai?

You could use that for your own inner narrative, although Tasunke could retort that you didn't move your troops forward earlier. In either case it doesn't matter much.

Q. If I cancel both peace deals with Tasunke next turn, is there a grace period that should be given such as 5-10 turns before I could consider attacking Tasunke?

No such thing. Attack him right now if you want.

Q. As convoluted as it sounds, is there any way to honor the Iron deal with Tas by maintaining war with Gavagai, but still be free to attack Tas either immediately or after an arbitrary grace period? (No I am not a monster, and am really not considering such a silly thing, but figured I would put it out there for clarification anyway.)

There's no real deal to honor. You're being biased by your full diplo past, in AI diplo world you don't have stick to your agreements for more than a couple turns (as you say, fish buddies doesn't count for much).


I'll summarize all this with GO FOR IT

[Donovan Zoi]

Thanks to you both! I feel a bit better about the whole thing now. It's just that I have put too much into this game to have it tarnished by accusations of foul play on my part. But these were definitely the answers I was hoping to hear.

With that said, the next turn or two should prove to be extremely interesting. My goal is to try to get peace from both retep and Gavagai so I can pursue this and stay competitive with the top 2. If I can get peace with one or the other, we should be fine but if both are sending implied messages to each other via the whipped units to conspire against us then it could get ugly fast.

With Tasunke no longer able to support us, there is a strong risk that Gavagai can level all 34 units we have at Kerkouane, especially since we have an extra turn of anarchy to contend with. And retep already has over 10 Knights on the island -- will he be landing more by boat next turn to try and take Chesapeake? At the very least, being able to conquer Zulu cities will at least give us a chance to offset any projected losses.

Also, in all the excitement I forgot to answer Adrien's earlier question:

Do the WEs have odds against knights ? I don't remember their exact stats.

WE's have a base of 7 against the Knights value of 10. So at 50% mounted attack, the WE wins at 10.50 v. 10.00 for the Knight. The silver lining here is that the Knights begin to slightly bridge the gap if each opposing unit has similar promos. The bad news is that Gavagai is fielding a battalion of grizzled vets, some with 4 promos or more! Our troops have had some nice training thanks to Theocracy but are lacking in on-field experience as the majority of our troops have 2 promos or less. Advantage Gavagai.

[Donovan Zoi]

Turn 182 - 1220 AD [ON HOLD]

OK, so the game fired back up a little too soon. it looks like I am going to need a pause this turn as I will be leaving for an overnight stay and will likely not be back until Friday night. Also, I am going to need some input from Adrien and the lurkers again, not to mention the diplomacy I'll need to hammer out with retep and Gavagai that kind of hinges on the legality of what I am about to present.

So I open the turn to find this on the diplo screen:




OK, it looks like Tas wants to re-up for peace so he can deal with Commodore. But why is he trying to shake me down for 60g?

Here's Why

Upon further looking around, I was surprised to see a Nav I Caravel in the channel that I don't remember being there. Well there is the 60g good faith gift, so it now made perfect sense.




Yet as I looked further I saw this in the northeast near the Hague. Two nicely promoted Medic units that Tas probably did not want to waste against Commodore.




Then upon reviewing the region near Kerkouane, even more unrecognized units. A stack of 21 (!) well promoted units including several Cats and Pikes, perfect for defense against anything that retep or Gavagai may have brewing.




So, My Question Is....

Is this a legal move on Tas' part? In an anything goes mindset that Joey described earlier, it would appear to be "yes." I also don't recall the gifting of units being flagged as verboten at the outset of the game. Since he questionably considers these units to be no help in his eastern battle against Commodore, Tas is basically buying our peace by giving us even more protection against our own enemies.

Tactically, the timing couldn't be more perfect for us. The stack of 21 can march right into Kerkouane while allowing us to zip Knights over to Thaenae so that they can make it to Chesapeake next turn. I can also move the two knights already there to defend Chesapeake immediately in case retep plans to attack with the 15 Knights he has on the island.

Oh yeah, and Tas also made peace with Gavagai as well last turn. Kind of makes all of my overly dramatic handwringing look silly now, but I still learned a lot from it. But if the above is considered illegal I will need to know so Tas' turn can be replayed.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[AdrienIer]

1) I don't think it was ever mentioned that gifting units was banned in this game so I suppose this is not technically illegal.
2) I hate this shit
3) I assume he did that because he thinks he's going to lose either way and wants to help his "ally", which is pretty ironic due to the last discussion we had.
4) I'd be tempted to just take the units and backstab him, taking half his empire with you. But that would be really, really dickish. The question now is between using those units to defeat Gavagai or make peace with Gavagai (even giving Kerkouane back for it) and attack Tasunke. If you do that I suggest not using Tasunke's stack against him, to stick with the "don't be a jerk" rule. I feel like you can do that (even though he'll probably be angry) because you where already thinking about attacking him. He's cornering you into not doing it which is unfair.

Maybe I'll have more to say in a few hours.

[Donovan Zoi]

I am actually more concerned about retep and would like to make peace with Gavagai to remove that threat. If I am allowed to accept the the units, I had no intention of attacking Tas and would honor the goodwill move. For the most part, I am mentally not capable of being a jerk (unless my game partner moves our units around without my permission ) so I would not be one in this case.

On the other hand, we can also see how Commodtay advances and take the cities from their injured garrisons.

I'll let you gather more thoughts. Hopefully, we will get some more feedback to work with while you do so.