Civilization V Solo Reports

[T-hawk]

Man, every thread about Civ 5 turns into a referendum on its merits as a game and compared to Civ 4. I think we've beaten that horse enough. I find Civ 5 enjoyable anyway despite its flaws that are well chronicled by now.

Is the base game without any expansions worth a go?

The expansions have improved Civ 5 considerably, but really by rebalancing and bug fixing and hole plugging, and not so much the actual expansion content. Things like redesigned city-state quests, rebalanced policy trees and bulbs and research agreements, added units to fill gaps on the tech tree, AI improvements. I don't know how much of this stuff filtered into vanilla along the way as compared to the expansions.

[superjm]

The combat system was completely overhauled between Vanilla and G&K, which is good because the original combat system was a total hot mess.

I mean I still don't like it all that much because it's still horribly imbalanced in many respects and the AI is horrific at using it but that least there's some semblance of coherence and scale and no "5 CKNs can kill every unit in the game" nonsense to give an example.

[Azoth]

An enjoyable read, again, T-hawk.

Trade routes really don't work well at all for gold economy games since internal trade routes are nearly always better. Poor balancing on the part of Firaxis there, especially given they were ostensibly a replacement for river/coastal gold. On the same token though, internal trade routes are really good and themselves a massive boon to quick expansion of new cities as you demonstrated, so I think the mechanic justifies itself in that case even if that wasn't what the devs intended.

I dunno, I think trade routes work pretty well. Early game, you want food to build that snowball. In the mid game, external trade routes become more important: you need gold for building purchases and city-state gifts and unit upgrades, and you can't sell all of your luxuries any more. Trade routes also help get AIs to Friendly, for research pacts, and contribute a little extra science when you dive deep into the tech tree. By the late game, your economy and diplomacy have stabilized, so what you most want is production. Plus, trade routes figure in two of the four victory conditions (Diplomacy and Culture). I can't find any fault with this mechanic. If anything, it's city connection gold that feels out of place, as it mostly breaks even against road maintenance. That said, trade routes are an empire-wide bonus. It's not surprising that they pale in comparison to the output of 24(!) cities.

A question: What approach would one take in BNW to actually get into the late-game stuff? Things like the conflicting ideology pressure and actual tourism battles with the late modifiers like airports. It seems you can just reach a victory condition well before any of that really gets going. Or it's that the AIs don't really know how to manage that stuff to get in any meaningful struggles with the human player. Do you have to play on Deity to see this, and just hope you don't get declared and steamrolled in war? Does it happen even on Deity?

One option is to play a later-era start. Say, Renaissance (no ancient/classical wonders) or Industrial (no religion!). It does change up the game quite a bit, especially when it comes to policy trees. The other option is, in fact, Deity. As it happens, you don't need a fantastic start or peaceful neighbours to compete on Deity. I was reading an interesting guide on Civfanatics the other day: Piety Small. (I discovered it rather unexpectedly; the author, adwcta, has developed an arena-drafting app for Hearthstone, and he mentioned it in passing.) Anyway, it talks about skipping the power trees (Tradition/Liberty) in favour of Piety, to guarantee an early religion with which to placate Deity AI neighbours. You stay small at first with few, low-pop cities, and accept that you will be behind in research until at least the Renaissance, and build zero wonders. Then, you leverage religion, trade routes, the World Congress, and ideology to win a late-game Diplomacy or Science victory. It's not the fastest way to win, but it has a good track record even on Deity. It's not a playstyle that will appeal to many players, but it put me in mind of some of the early Civ3 reports from Sirian and others: where you were BEHIND, and went from building Temples to Factories.

Man, every thread about Civ 5 turns into a referendum on its merits as a game and compared to Civ 4. I think we've beaten that horse enough. I find Civ 5 enjoyable anyway despite its flaws that are well chronicled by now.

This, very much. Civ 5 is not Civ 4, but a fine game all the same. I do think the expansions add a lot of texture and replayability, though. I'm not sure the base game would keep me captivated for more than a handful of games.

If there were one change I would suggest, it would be limiting the output of early Great Scientists and Writers, just like Musicians. Keeping them around for late game techs/ideological tenets is the one real game-y mechanic left in Civ5, and it's a big reason why the later eras fly by so fast.

[T-hawk]

I dunno, I think trade routes work pretty well. Early game, you want food to build that snowball. In the mid game, external trade routes become more important: you need gold for building purchases and city-state gifts and unit upgrades, and you can't sell all of your luxuries any more.

It's more that internal routes work too well, and overshadow the interesting complexity of the foreign route system. 8 free food for a newly founded city is just too much. And I'm finding that you don't switch them to external routes later. Food or production always does more at least as long as you're researching fast enough to have things to build. If you want gold, don't do it by trade routes, do it by food to work trading posts or merchants, or production to build banks. I think the game should have cut the internal route part entirely - we've already got city connections for that.

Like everything glued on to Civ 5, the trade routes are a look-at-me mechanic overly generous to get your attention while subsuming the terrain yields that are supposed to be the core lifeblood of Civilization. It's a serious strategic loss that ocean tiles got eviscerated into uselessness.

Industrial era start for focusing on the ideologies, I like that idea, may try it out.

I was reading an interesting guide on Civfanatics the other day: Piety Small.

I saw that too, browsing through the forum. It's more of a gimmick than a real strategy, and the author kind of admits it. The entire space section is theory and he says so. There's no real reason to go Piety over Tradition/Liberty, it's just a guide for doing it for kicks. There is a real thing about keeping your own cities small so that they convert from pressure, but that's hardly an entire game plan, just one small point.

Total # of bribes to AI for DoW: Zulu 4 (to occupy his army)

Found the mechanic he's really abusing there.

[Azoth]

It's more that internal routes work too well, and overshadow the interesting complexity of the foreign route system. 8 free food for a newly founded city is just too much. And I'm finding that you don't switch them to external routes later. Food or production always does more at least as long as you're researching fast enough to have things to build. If you want gold, don't do it by trade routes, do it by food to work trading posts or merchants, or production to build banks. I think the game should have cut the internal route part entirely - we've already got city connections for that.

I think it depends on when you stop expanding. +8 food/city (or more typically +4) is a lot for a brand new city, not so much for a mature one. More precisely, much of Civ5 is balanced (as you've noted before) on whether returns materialize before the expected victory date. A gold route NOW that allows for the immediate purchase of an additional Public School when that tech is researched is better than a food route that will eventually produce a citizen to work a trading post or become a merchant. And I'm not sure how efficient the hammer-to-gold ratio is for Banks. I usually only maintain food routes to a Tradition capital. Production trade routes are great, but I usually dive deep into the top half of the tech tree, and arrive late to Workshops. Maybe that's a mistake. If anything, though, they should scrap city connection bonuses AND road maintenance, and leave the trade routes alone.

Like everything glued on to Civ 5, the trade routes are a look-at-me mechanic overly generous to get your attention while subsuming the terrain yields that are supposed to be the core lifeblood of Civilization. It's a serious strategic loss that ocean tiles got eviscerated into uselessness.

Well, yes, Civ5 goes to great lengths to reduce the importance of terrain yields in favor of everything else: buildings, wonders, city-states, social policies, trade routes, religion, ideologies. I'd call it more of a deliberate design choice than a strategic loss. It means that almost any start is competitive. It also means that early game micro is not nearly as important as it is in Civ4. You might run into a Religious city-state in the fog, throwing off all of your plans - only for it to ask you for a Great Admiral as its first quest. Whimsical? Or frustrating? Depends on the player.

As far as ocean goes, though.... It's almost always a mistake to (grow to) work bare ocean tiles (2 food, 1 gold) in Civ4 AND Civ5. Removing the gold just makes it that much more obvious.

I saw that too, browsing through the forum. It's more of a gimmick than a real strategy, and the author kind of admits it. The entire space section is theory and he says so. There's no real reason to go Piety over Tradition/Liberty, it's just a guide for doing it for kicks. There is a real thing about keeping your own cities small so that they convert from pressure, but that's hardly an entire game plan, just one small point.

Total # of bribes to AI for DoW: Zulu 4 (to occupy his army)

Found the mechanic he's really abusing there.

Eh, you start next to a Deity Zulu AI in any iteration of Civ, you'll have to resort to something similar to survive. The more interesting metrics, in my view, are:

275 turns to win, China was the only civ who finished Apollo (with two boosters) at this point.
0 total world wonders built.
On turn 160, I finished the NC.
On turn 220, I had not yet opened Rationalism.
Total units built/bought: 1 scout, 3 triremes, 1 worker (1 stolen from CS)
Total great scientists used: 1 generated, 1 gifted by CS, 1 faith-bought.
Religion used: Taoism. Goddess of Festivals, Papal Primacy, Monasteries, Choral Music, Religious Unity, Evangelism

A very respectable end date, comparable with your games (not that you were racing for fastest victory, either). No Wonders, no power options for religion, few Great Scientists.
The point is it pays to be humble in this game, not to pink-dot every AI into a corner, and bluff your way with meaningless diplo modifiers and cardboard cutouts. You miss a wonder or a city site? It's not the end of the world, you can totally mount a comeback. Whenever you play against an AI with starting bonuses, it's simply a matter of which mechanics you want to abuse.

[T-hawk]

A gold route NOW that allows for the immediate purchase of an additional Public School when that tech is researched is better than a food route that will eventually produce a citizen to work a trading post or become a merchant.

That's not immediate - the gold route needs time to produce its yield, same as any other route. There's no inherent turn advantage in gold over the other types of route yields. The turn advantage is only in timeshifting - you can use gold from before the tech is discovered, you can't use hammers - but that's still opportunity cost in that time period over what you aren't producing with a production route.

I usually only maintain food routes to a Tradition capital.

This doesn't ring right. The food advantage of the Tradition capital is only 10% from the one policy (all cities get the +15%). Since each size costs 10% more food, the food route converts into new citizens best in the capital only if the capital is no more than one size larger than other potential targets. It's true that citizens do have more yield in the capital (National College, maybe Commerce opener). But those escalating food costs mean that I think the capital stalls out on payback sooner than you think.

Production trade routes are great, but I usually dive deep into the top half of the tech tree, and arrive late to Workshops. Maybe that's a mistake.

Production routes are great when and only when there aren't hills to convert a food route into production, as was the case in my islands game, and it definitely felt worth prioritizing the workshop tech to get to them. Yeah I'm not sure of the relative benefit of food/production routes or skewing towards Metal Casting on a more regular map.

If anything, though, they should scrap city connection bonuses AND road maintenance, and leave the trade routes alone.

They want the road maintenance, otherwise every tile becomes covered in a road, which is ugly and micromanagement-intensive. And they need the city connections to give you some reason to build some roads. Yes, this is another area where Civ 5 wanted to put some brakes on the system but couldn't figure out a great way to do it.

As far as ocean goes, though.... It's almost always a mistake to (grow to) work bare ocean tiles (2 food, 1 gold) in Civ4 AND Civ5. Removing the gold just makes it that much more obvious.

It's a mistake to do it deliberately, but the gold makes you feel a lot better about salvaging something out of it. In the meantime when you're waiting for more tile improvements to complete, or more specialist buildings, or just in an island city that's never going to have anything besides ocean anyway.

Good discussions. See, this is where our opinions on Civ 5 diverge from the haters. Lots of people see the flaws in the systems and trash Civ 5 as a game. I see the flaws and still want to understand and explore and exploit the systems anyway.

[superjm]

I do want to try a game plan focused on a gold economy, but can't see a clear direction to take it in. Maybe Poland and their free policies could manage it?

Poland can do anything it wants with little difficulty with its free policies, there's a reason they're considered the de facto best Civ in the game.

[T-hawk]

More. http://www.dos486.com/civ5/bnw4/

And I finally broke out Civ 5 into a proper separate section and menu on the site, rather than awkwardly glued to the underbelly of the Civ 4 reports.

A question for a possible future game plan: Is there any way to get tourism from the culture from the World Church belief? The hotel-type buildings only work on culture from wonders and landmarks; is there any mechanic anywhere that can do it for World Church?

Poland can do anything it wants with little difficulty with its free policies, there's a reason they're considered the de facto best Civ in the game.

Well, people like to call all sorts of things broken or godly that aren't really true. I happened to run across this thread that does have some interesting discussion. Poland is good, but I've got to see them pitted against the Dutch or Korea/Babylon for some serious speed science runs...

[superjm]

I don't know about Poland being necessarily the best fast science civ, not with Babylon and others around, but its versatility can't really be replicated by anyone else. A common refrain in all your Civ 5 reports I see is that you simply don't get enough policies fast enough for certain strategies to materialize before it no longer matters, especially considering how one must prioritize Rationalism once Renaissance rolls around.

I mean just consider that, from the moment you enter Renaissance to the Radio slingshot for an ideology, you gain three free policies in the process. That's half of Rationalism just done, at absolutely zero cost to yourself. Instead of needing to spend 5 or 6 policies on Rationalism before you even think about dabbling into ideology or Commerce or whatever else, you only need 2 or 3. And that's not even getting into finishing Tradition 400-500 (or more) culture sooner, or even being able to splash into Piety or Aesthetics or Patronage or whatever without delaying the Tradition finisher for longer than normal because of the two free policies pre-Renaissance. Or bulbing straight through Atomic Era into Rocketry/Ecology, immediately popping Rationalism finisher to get an Info era tech and then using yet another free policy to do whatever for your preferred late-game play.

And since the policies are truly free and don't increase the culture counter or anything like that, it just completely skews the timing of your policy acquisition in your favor in such a massive way and only gets better as the game goes along. Hell the biggest problem with playing Poland is getting your policies too fast and being forced to burn a policy or two in a tree that doesn't immediately help you because it's too early in the game.

Does this make Poland better than all other civs in all situations? Probably not, after all they don't get any direct food or science bonuses that other civs enjoy, but because of their UA they take what is usually an integral element of developing your empire, policy acquisition, sometimes requiring careful timing and tough choices as to where and when to deviate from the most optimal paths, and trivializes it.

[T-hawk]

its versatility can't really be replicated by anyone else.

I see that's where we're disagreeing. Versatility isn't what I'm prioritizing, I'm going for deep dives into specific areas.

And as you say, Rationalism is the elephant in the room. Poland only gets two extra policies before Rationalism opens. That's not enough to complete any extra trees. I agree Poland can splash well, but they have to splash, they can't start filling Rationalism or ideologies any sooner and can't do anything else strong enough to warrant delaying Rationalism. Where would you splash inbetween Tradition and Rationalism? I guess either Patronage or up to Mercantilism in Commerce are the options. Or maybe go Tradition > partial Aesthetics > Rationalism > finish Aesthetics for a tourism victory.

None of that seems particularly gamebreaking though. So I think Poland still does the same stuff as anyone else, they just get to do it faster. I hadn't thought about simply completing Tradition sooner, that alone is indeed worth a few hundred food and might compete with the likes of Dutch or Rome for productivity.

I'll definitely try out Poland at some point, at any rate.