This is gonna be good: von Adlercreutz and Taotao

[taotao]

I think I made a mistake moving the scout were i moved.Is there any rule to keep the setler race ? for example in turn 72 serdoa moves the archer on the hill and see our setling party, so he moves and setles for the cows and clams on the grras , ends turns and after moves the archer into the city, can we acuse him of anithyng? And our spot is invalidated by that move... , Irealy think we should had used first setler to get this spot. The question is what we can do from now?What odds would have an axe and a chariot on super archer on the city on flat land? will be for axe like 5 against 3+2,1 + first strike so will be under 30%, with some luck chariot could win.I was considering next turn to move thescout back on the forest and declare war , he will need to take a 3 vs 2 batle but if score 1,2 hits on the archer our odds will be better.

What about this on turn 72 we move the chariot on grasshill and declare war ?

I really don't think we'll lose the possibility of settling the city. (And in a worst case scenario we'd only lose the strategical importance of the city and a cow tile). For these reasons I don't feel like declaring war now.

But, I do see the risk of him settling next to clams in reaction to us.

For this reason I'm currently trying to come up with scenarios where I would be ok with declaring war.
Something along the lines of:
T72 we move chariot to grass hill (before Serdoa). If we see either an archer and a settler
or
an archer and a worker on tile 1E of cows, then we declare war.

we might still declare war unnecessarily in this version, but at least it should weed out a fairly high percentage of the chances that we're antagonizing Serdoa without cause.

[reddog]

thata souds good to me.


Lets discuss about what we research becasue as i said is very important.lets see the options:

1.CoL pro:
-gave us a religion , later a shrine
-for sure we canuse OR later
cons:
-religion will do nothing for us for next 40 turns(as we are creative and helping in poping borders is very small)
-we have to invest in tech path which i dont see necesary to get the shrine which will cam in like 50-60 turns from now if not more
-we are not spiritual so we get a cheap temple or to swap to caste for several turns
-missing the religion will let us with tech which dont need 40 turns from now and i think that from 20 players at leas one will go for col and for example Comodore hasa big capitol early so he migh go for CS so COL is a very good tech for him.
2.IW pro:
-improve gems at pukila very fast, getting beter gnp
-more power
-cheaper , big ktb , know by the neighbours
-get swords,reveal iron.
cons:
- dont see any
3. Siling , alpahbet
pro:- i think we can get open borders with rem and and maybe even with the impi guy, will be good for economy
-can send some boats on scouting without declaring war
cons : we dont have many people discovered so will not benefit great so maybe beter after IW.

Fom this options depends on what we want to do from now , if we want to go to war and expand like that we must go for IW and after that consider if get sailing calendar or go stright for construction. MY strong opinion is go for IW and military route and forget about CoL as we need to invest too much for the return , even if we get the religion and if we dont get it is a complet waste for a very long ter.

For any options you prefer is beter to turn tech on now becasue after plating 1-2 more cites the cost will increase great and we will research less with same amout of money.

[taotao]

First, a couple of changes to what I said last turn about potential war against Serdoa.
- Serdoa didn’t move up his worker last turn. This means that he needs to move two workers (or a settler) to the tile 1E of cows t71 for us to risk losing the city plant.
- I moved the scout 2W this turn. This means we don’t need to move the chariot to the hill in order to see what’s going on with Serdoas units (what a lovely neighbor we are… )

Lets discuss about what we research because as i said is very important. lets see the options:

1.CoL pro:
-gave us a religion , later a shrine
-for sure we can use OR later
cons:
-religion will do nothing for us for next 40 turns(as we are creative and helping in poping borders is very small)
-we have to invest in tech path which i dont see necesary to get the shrine which will cam in like 50-60 turns from now if not more
-we are not spiritual so we get a cheap temple or to swap to caste for several turns
-missing the religion will let us with tech which dont need 40 turns from now and i think that from 20 players at leas one will go for col and for example Comodore hasa big capitol early so he migh go for CS so COL is a very good tech for him.

Generally I agree with you, but I’ll still comment on a few things:

- CoL is a kind of high risk – high reward alternative, just like building a good wonder. There’s not that many turns between when we could switch to IW at little cost and getting confu though.
- We are organized, so CoL (as a tech) is better for us than most
- I’m considering whether we shouldn’t build AW if we get the religion. Instead we could research myst + med, send the free missionary to a city that can afford chopping/whipping out a temple and run a priest specialist for 59 turns (67 – 8 in a GA). It’s a ridiculously long time, but still not that much longer than quick AW path. This way our tech path isn’t affected nearly as much, but it kind of pushes us towards military. (For instance because no academy means vassalage is more tempting).
- I tried looking through the most likely candidates for CoL in civstats, but didn’t see a perfect fit.
* Dtay I didn’t see a single score increase over 5p the last 15t. If he belined CoL early with weak economy I guess it’s possible that he’ll get it in 1-2t and for that reason I’d feel like still saving gold.*
* Yuri has gotten two classical techs, but was either very quick to currency or isn’t going this way (got an ancient tech last turn).
* Krill, hasn’t gone currency yet and I don’t see a quick succession of ancient techs to priesthood. (same with Barteq)
* Commodore might have gotten currency same turn as us. Generally doesn’t prioritise religion. Is creative, but not organized so CoL in itself holds very little value other than route to CS.

2.IW pro:
-improve gems at pulkkila very fast, getting better gnp
-more power
-cheaper , big ktb , know by the neighbours
-get swords, reveal iron.
cons:
- dont see any

The obvious tech to go for in a “safe” expansion mode. Good for safety (projecting power), conquest (can start swords), [production (if we have iron)] and gnp (jungle on gems).
- I wouldn’t say it’s a “big” ktb. It’s 2% per met player and isn’t REM the only one we know who has it?
- Might take until late renaissance or something before we can start to spread a religion.
- We might have a great empire, but it’s looking like we’re lacking on that something extra (shrine, mids, mom etc) that will make it a winning empire in the later eras (and no easy way to conquer something like that). (Still, we’ve got one late-game trait and a late-game civ, so as long as we keep up initially we might still be in with a shot).
- Do we have enough workers now to fully take advantage?

3. Sailing , alpahbet
pro:- i think we can get open borders with rem and and maybe even with the impi guy, will be good for economy
-can send some boats on scouting without declaring war
cons : we dont have many people discovered so will not benefit great so maybe better after IW.

- I first thought that we couldn’t use sailing yet, but actually our new city will connect us with REM through the inner sea.
- We might be short on worker turns soon, but lighthouses in Pulkkila and Pyhäjoki would help the situation.
- Moai is cheap (with stone that need masonry), so settling that city north of the cap soon and look for creative whipping would be advisable.

From this options depends on what we want to do from now , if we want to go to war and expand like that we must go for IW and after that consider if get sailing calendar or go straight for construction. MY strong opinion is go for IW and military route and forget about CoL as we need to invest too much for the return , even if we get the religion and if we dont get it is a complete waste for a very long ter.

I honestly don’t know how I feel here. I kind of got my mind set on the CoL route (as long as confu is available), but IW definitely is a useful tech at this stage. I guess that no matter what, we’re fairly set on attacking DZ at some point, question is only when? Now, when he’s relatively strong, but terribly underexpanded at three cities or later when he’s built us a few more cities, but has better opportunities of whipping/chopping defenders during the war? Will the ten extra turns or so of developing peacefully matter much in when we attack, considering we’ve still got regular expanding to do?
I also believe that if we wait a bit, we’ll get a distraction from CH also attacking DZ, but as he’s also underexpanded I don’t know if that’s something we can afford waiting for.

For any options you prefer is better to turn tech on now because after planting 1-2 more cites the cost will increase great and we will research less with same amout of money.

Is this really true? Our break even research rate might go down due to higher expenditure, but surely that doesn’t mean that we’ll get less total research done with our money? Sure, if we can get the tech now it’s better to do so for the benefits of the tech (especially if it’s a passive economic tech like say currency ), but it won’t affect the timing of a tech bigger than we can afford now, just the matter of if we want to tech slowly with an almost finished or hardly started tech.

Two small techs that we might want to fit in somewhere in the future:
Masonry - Makes Pulkkila much better, small help for Revolahti, "necessary" for Moai or other (fail gold?) wonders.
Archery - We'll have border cities on hills against three different opponents soon. Cheap, versatile defenders (especially against roaming galleys).


* to be honest I kind of hope that Dtay will get CoL next turn. That way we don't have to consider that option anymore.

[reddog]

You dont know the love which comodore has for CoL and burocracy and i think he research a litle better then us becasue he has lower expenses.And after loads a tough i dont see CoL such a great reward becasue we need to tech for Angor what build that wonder and spend a great prophet on the shrine.I see more a medium rewar with a huge investition and a huge risk, but is your game so you can do whateever you want in this regard.And i think getting some conquest faster will worth far more then getting col which to use it proper need to invest in it alot.If we were spiritual and non creativ there would have been another merit for it, this way is justa huge risk and we get forced by ourselves into a specific techpath and building a certain wonder which reduce alot flexibility.If we start conquest faster Serdoa will not be prepare to chip in if he already fill his land as well will start to prepare.I always like to stretch my civ at maximum , going CoL you go in builder mode which will get a nice 12-13 city empire with neighbours you cant atack all around.

In pb 13 I atacked MH very fast,in 20 i done same think with gavagai and always payed back, every time was with cats axes ha and here we have the super swords as well.

In civ is good even you have your mind on somehting and doesnt look that good to change it.

And if we go iron working we should switch to full tech for 2 turns after 1 turn of gatherin money and in 2 more turn will finish it.

[reddog]

DTay , col? I see you didnt falow to much of dtay games.I think dtay is imperialist now he is sitting on 10 cities , and morer likely he planted 5 tiles from enemy capitol(see pb 22 were he completly boxed 2metra , or other of his games like first pbem with tbs were he planted loads of cities and he went so far away with farmer gambit but Tbs punished him), and he usualy compltly crashes economy for a great return later.His style works if your neighbour dont call you on that lets hope he has krill like a neighbour.

[taotao]

DTay , col? I see you didnt falow to much of dtay games.I think dtay is imperialist now he is sitting on 10 cities , and morer likely he planted 5 tiles from enemy capitol(see pb 22 were he completly boxed 2metra , or other of his games like first pbem with tbs were he planted loads of cities and he went so far away with farmer gambit but Tbs punished him), and he usualy compltly crashes economy for a great return later.His style works if your neighbour dont call you on that lets hope he has krill like a neighbour.

Yes, dtay usually expands like Usain Bolt out of the starting blocks. He usually gets a religion as well though.
(pb13: conquered the hindu holy city from TBS
pb18: founded judaism, went for "pindicators" hindu shrine.
pb22: didn’t get a religion. Thought about acquiring the christian shrine, but didn’t manage to.
pbem53: Hinduism founded).
He also will get a Great Prophet from Stonehenge in just short of 20 turns.
And he hasn't been expanding as fast as I would've thought. He might be ahead of us in city count, but it's not by much.

You dont know the love which comodore has for CoL and burocracy and i think he research a litle better then us becasue he has lower expenses.

You might be right. He might go for it. But he did research something last turn (his gold went down) and I find that kind of odd if he got currency last turn and is heading straight for CoL. It looks more like getting say Calendar last turn and now researching masonry... (Commodore will always expand to try and grab marble in a contested region).

And after loads a tough i dont see CoL such a great reward becasue we need to tech for Angor what build that wonder and spend a great prophet on the shrine.I see more a medium rewar with a huge investition and a huge risk, but is your game so you can do whateever you want in this regard.

Like I said earlier today, I don't think going Anchor Wat is the right choice if getting confu. Instead focus on military and taking some extra land while waiting for that GP somewhere before or around the t150-mark.
I don't see CoL as a quick reward, instead it's an investment for the end-game. How many contenders in pb18 did not have a shrine? (actually don't remember if BGN shrined philosophy, but he was phi...).

And i think getting some conquest faster will worth far more then getting col which to use it proper need to invest in it a lot. If we were spiritual and non creativ there would have been another merit for it, this way is justa huge risk and we get forced by ourselves into a specific techpath and building a certain wonder which reduce alot flexibility. If we start conquest faster Serdoa will not be prepare to chip in if he already fill his land as well will start to prepare. I always like to stretch my civ at maximum , going CoL you go in builder mode which will get a nice 12-13 city empire with neighbours you cant atack all around.

I value your input. It's good that you make arguments for your ideas. I guess one argument to attack asap is that conquest will be harder when people have catapult stacks on the defense. I'm not turning science on this turn, but I can tell you that I am considering IW for real.

In pb 13 I atacked MH very fast,in 20 i done same think with gavagai and always payed back, every time was with cats axes ha and here we have the super swords as well.

I'm not sure how relevant pb13 will be. You attacked on t113 or something(?) with mainly horse archers against the lowest power in the area by far. m_h was disinterested in the game at that point and responded to your power spike by building the Colossus. Gavagai was a better opponent, but that attack was much earlier to begin with and you really outsmarted him with the chariot builds when he went on the counterattack. Still, he also built you the Colossus which helped with the economy of the endeavor.

In civ is good even you have your mind on somehting and doesnt look that good to change it.

Yes,
now I just need to convince myself that a shrine doesn't look that good once we reach the end game...

[taotao]

Ok, I logged into the game as we have a new turn and I am not happy.

We were debating what tech to chose next (you leaning towards IW while I was leaning towards CoL). I said I wanted to save money for a couple of turns, you said you wanted to save money for 1 more turn (at least that is how I interpret this):

And if we go iron working we should switch to full tech for 2 turns after 1 turn of gatherin money and in 2 more turn will finish it.

Now when I log in I see that you have switched tech to Iron Working and set science slider to 100%, wasting 73 base beakers from CoL should we have decided on that route.
And it's not like we had to turn the slider last turn if going IW. It'll still take us 4 turns before we have the tech!
This is not a cool method of "negotiating" our tech path.

I'm hoping that this is all a big misunderstanding and you accidentally forgot to change research back after testing some different paths, but I hope you at least see why I might be upset...

I'll think this over still, but I believe IW will have to be our next tech now...

[GermanJoey]

pb22: didn’t get a religion. Thought about acquiring the christian shrine, but didn’t manage to.

He actually did... took it off 2metra on the final turn of the game, heh.

I don't see CoL as a quick reward, instead it's an investment for the end-game. How many contenders in pb18 did not have a shrine? (actually don't remember if BGN shrined philosophy, but he was phi...).

for the top 6, it worked out like this:

OH+FT: captured the Hindu shrine from Pindicator in the Modern era. They self-spread Hinduism.
BGN: never got his Taoist shrine; missed his prophet roll from AW I think at least 3 times in a row and then just gave up on it. IIRC he got a very late prophet and then just used it for a 5-man GA.
TBS: self-founded Confucianism shrine
Me: none; I spread Confucianism for the AP hammers.
dtay: self-founded Jewish shrine
Krill: none; IIRC he spread Taoism when he got it so as not to help dtay.

[taotao]

Mis-clicked on Commodore's thread (sitting 1 row above mine). Think I was in that thread for approximately 1/10 of a second before getting out (and obviously didn't see anything).
I thought about installing that script which makes sure you don't read anything you're not supposed to, but it doesn't help me much since my main rb-reading computer is a mac (and I don't think the script works on those in general) and I've kind of promised myself never to install anything non-work-related on the office computer which I use second most for surfing this site...

Anyway, since I mentioned Commodore anyhow, I'd better show you this:



That is one big pile of rocks that he has collected.
I wish I knew exactly where Commodore is located to get a feel for how much neighbours will punish his slower expansion due to mids, but for now let's just say that Commodore is winning the "mine is bigger than yours"-competition.

[taotao]

pb22: didn’t get a religion. Thought about acquiring the christian shrine, but didn’t manage to.

He actually did... took it off 2metra on the final turn of the game, heh.

Thanks GJ!
Seems like my memory/reading was a bit sloppy. Well, GG dtay!

I don't see CoL as a quick reward, instead it's an investment for the end-game. How many contenders in pb18 did not have a shrine? (actually don't remember if BGN shrined philosophy, but he was phi...).

for the top 6, it worked out like this:

TBS: self-founded Confucianism shrine
OH+FT: captured the Hindu shrine from Pindicator in the Modern era. They self-spread Hinduism.
BGN: never got his Taoist shrine; missed his prophet roll from AW I think at least 3 times in a row and then just gave up on it. IIRC he got a very late prophet and then just used it for a 5-man GA.
dtay: self-founded Jewish shrine
Me: none; I spread Confucianism for the AP hammers.
Krill: none; IIRC he spread Taoism when he got it so as not to help dtay.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's very possible to have a great game and be a force to be reckoned with in a huge game without a shrine, but it's hard to really be in with a shot at winning unless you have a very favourable neighbourhood and/or some big wonders to boost your civ in the late game.