Since Ottomans dared on a desperate attack and failed it I invented 2 plans how to turn it into our own profit. The main idea is to try to get Dantski's sweet cap with SH in it. The chances are low, but considering his current power of 33k soldiers and just 2 cities it can be worth trying.
1. 5-moving galley
The first plan is to bring there 2 chariots on 5-moving general galley. If our city and something of the first group survives we can unload galley in a range of attack
Pros:
- this is the fastest way we can bring anything there, 2 chars will be able to attack cap at T76
- 5-moving galley can help us to get circumnavigation
- the least sacrifices and maintance
Cons:
- general galley is not very good in future (10 other exp can only be given to chariot, but what is 10 exp char? 2x 5exp chars are much better)
- only 2 chariots have very limited capabilities (in any case, if we have to take city back, at least 1 chariot wont be able to reach cap next turn)
- if our first group dies they can only expect them to kill just 1 units
- so in general this expedition has chances only if Dantski continues sacrificing units and still has bad luck
- we still have to whip 2 chariots
2. 2x 4-moving galley
This plan is a bit more complicated, we need 2 galleys, need to bring them together, fill them up with bigger sacrifices as well but I am sure its advantages can overcome the temporal investments.
Pros:
- we can bring 4 units including general axe (freely upgraded from warrior)
- better expirience spread (5 exp for char, 5 for axe, 5+5 for galleys)
- even if the first group dies we have great opportunity to reach cap in time (probably in this case we lose city but have a chance to exchange Dantski's units there instead of 60% +hill cap)
- general axe can move after being unloaded in case we have to take city back, this can be decisive
- 2-moving axe is great in cutting cooper
- in different situations 2x 4-movers can be better than 1x 5-mover
Cons:
- 1 turn later, we can hit cap at turn T77
- more investments (need to whip 1 extra galley and take warrior to upgrade)
- more maintance
It is cold and wet day-off so I have some time to post about the latest event in our corner of the world. Most of the time me and OT4e are on the move and the bulk of the discussions we do through gtalk/hangouts, so I will use logs to illustrate the situation and our ideas.
First thing is Dantski had some luck back wiping out our stack and took his city which we were roleplayingly named WeDoNotSow.
Quote:OT4E:
just imagine 1 thing
Dantski takes city back
what will he do?
and why do I think that it is not the worst scenario for us?
but we need more than 2 units there
he is not slaving
2metraninja • пт, 19:54
btw axe gives 6k soldiers
dunno why I was sure that it was five
2metraninja • пт, 20:12
hi
I saw your post
very well structured
and I told you axe gives 5 or 6K
for me, if Dantski takes city back, he will try to garrison it as best as he can, so if we are to fight his army, we will have to storm this city and take it again, but at way better odds - 20% and no hill. which is nice in terms of chances and statistics. but this will mean that we will have to fight 2 battles - one for WDNS and just after this for his capitol. Our army will be wounded and tired and having to fight for the city will give him at least 1 turn warning in advance, so he puts something in queue and he slaves next turn in cap.
why you think it is not worst scenario for us? and do you calculate our loss of the city to include or to not include our 2 current units there killed?
I start to worry about Dutch too
what we do if they come with 8 chars //?
пт, 23:06
OT4E:
I think Dantski wont make much units
he needs settlers
workers
so he will keep maybe 1 axe, 1 war
if so we can take it by just 1 char
and unload 3 units
and take cap
and about the timing I think he can take it may be 1-2 turn before we come with reinforcements
so he wont fortify or even get his 20% back
so what do you think about my plans?
ah you didnt say anything about my quiz
btw he has killed our group ?
we should go for the forest ?
he has got +8 k power, so i guess we cancel our mission
the main thing I wanted to say is that he will bring workers there
to road, for pigs and probably choppings
btw we found molach
so the new plan is to sail north
with general galley and 1 char
And forget about Dantski
I think we must take baebarian city, get doublewood axe and explore region
And go for circum
2metraninja • сб, 8:35
Morning
So he got his luck back
With warriors?
OT4E:
Axe+ war
66% +48,5
In the forest we could survive
I noobed it
I saw he has 33k, but not 27 but told myself it is arch
But we live further and I like it
We do not spoil his GP, no cheap conquest for us, more interesting game, no unnecessary sacrifices
2metraninja • сб, 9:15
I guessed he had something to brag about when I saw he posted in his thread
well, we did what we came for, he is crippled beyond all repairs
would had been better if we played it more conservatively by going on the forested hill, but it is OK too. he is exhausted and unrepairable in the stone age
pillaged, razed, worker stolen, morale shaken, 2:1 hammers exchange in units
we got doubling of our workerforce, we got a GG, some money from pillaging and conquering cities, some money from TRs, we had ton of fun
we forget about him until when we are ready to consume him when we have our nation turned in to powerhouse with lush farms and smoking mines
well, maybe, just maybe, we send ocasionally galley of two around his shores to make him whip axes and spears in horror lol
you are right about we live further, no easy conquest for us, etc, but you are not right about one thing - about more interesting game. I think it will be more dull game - in the good meaning of dull - we do not make cunning plans for heroic captures of other people's capitols against all odds, we simply use our God given traits, our mapmaker given core and our own gained land neighbor land as lebensraum, we settle and develop as fast and as effective as we possibly can, outgrow and out produce our already crippled neighbors and just when there is not much thrill and unknown factors, we go and conquer them.
here and there using opportunity if we can and when it is served to us is OK, but otherwise, I would love to see us using this hard and cunning gained advantage to be turned in to further and unstoppable and unavoidable uber-advantage which nets us win in the game.
as if there is a strategy to win a chess game by only having 1 pawn advantage by playing cautious and exchanging 1:1 everything else, I would say so far we got a queen and 5 pawns advantage, so we just need to play it cool and use our advantage.
The outcome of our Dantski's adventure is great in our estimation. In strategic and military aspect at least. So no big deal of losing our small brave group in his lands and the city of WDNS. In economic aspect though, losing the city was hard hit on us and it would had been way better if we could somehow held it.
OT4E:
Quote:I think we need to send galley to explore western islands or whatever it is
Losing WDNS was a serious strike on us, we started this turn with -3 gpt
So we need barbarian city especially if we dont find other trade partners with cities
This is the barb city we talk about:
We will give it some more time to eventually build a worker for us and then go for it with 2 axes. We believe having this off- shore city will be well worth the efforts and will give us increase in economics, as for now we do not have enough foreign cities to trade with. Also, we do not want to rely on random guys closing their borders on their own random decision put us in to economic havoc and possibly strike for losing TR income, so we plan to plant a second off-shore city somewhere else too.
The next turn after we lost WDNS we met 2 other nations:
In the North-West behind Dutch territory - Molach/Stalin:
Quote:2metraninja: what we unload near Molach if anything at all? do we want to meet him? I think yes, and we need to unload scout - to .. well.. scout ... and to calm him down that we are just travelers who pass nearby, and just if we see something like empty city or unguarded worker in striking position, just then we unload char and possibly take our chance. and I want to meet him because of known tech bonuses eventually and to have better view on him via espionage, etc.
OT4E:
Scout was moved
We cant unload
We meet him next turn
2metraninja: but do we scout him?
OT4E:
I think even if we see empty city we can pass through it
2metraninja: ☺ and get him some nervous?
OT4E:
May be we need to finish writing
To open borders
2metraninja: with him?
OT4E:
Yeap
2metraninja: will TR go through Dutch coast?
OT4E:
He is our ally
Yes sure
If we are not at war
2metraninja:
Probably he knows writing
But to be sure and not to spoil trade routes
We'd better not declare war
how good our TRs will be with him?
OT4E:
3 coin must be
1 for being foreign, 1 for other landmass
2metraninja: if it is indeed other landmass
OT4E:
How can it be our landmass?
And foreign are always 2c
2metraninja: it can be connected down south of Dutch
OT4E:
So we open borders and do not horrify him
May be unload scout
2metraninja: ☺ ok
To show our peaceful intentions
but even we might not unload scout
at RB guys take scouting out someone as aggressive and hostile move
OT4E:
If he doesnt open or declarre we come and kick his ass
lol
2metraninja: right
OT4E:
We are not bordering him
He must be happy it is just scout
2metraninja: In general he is our friend
and do we finish writing this turn so we are sure we can OB next turn or we rely that he have it and we wont need it right now and we get slight KTB after this?
OT4E:
Lets do it now
2metraninja: yes, we distorted a bit the usual scheme us-enemy-friend
OT4E: Btw 1 barb near Molach is promoted, probably killed scout or smth
And straight North-East of us - Ipecac:
Quote:OT4E:
damn there is ipecac to the north from us and I showed him galley
he has 4 cities, Molach has 3
we know 5 civs now and only Zanth knows OH
hope those guys will open borders
big chance that we have picked wrong way
ipecac is damn close...
probably we forced ipecac to slave, lol
i can imagine wall of shitbricks he made
ipecac refused to open
OH is working on another settler probably
OT4E:
Damn damn damn... How could I screw up so hard((
I moved galley before ipecac entered,is there a chance we can attack him during phase 1?
I sent him 1 more offer of OB, may be he finally agrees it instead of losing 2 clams..
2metraninja • сб, 22:44
☺
another interesting turn
I strongly doubt about HG. we are like 20 turns away from Math and once we get that, I am not sure HG will be worth the investment at all. we get like 8-10 extra pop for whipping, which equals 240-300h and we need 30(monument)+100(aqueduct)+150(HG itself)=280h investition
it might be indeed true that Dantski and Ipecac's lands are not connected and our way is through the channel between them
and I do think ipecac had stomach problems when he saw our viking uber-galley and he knows already our reputation lol
why he is refusing OB, I do not know - maybe to look tough guy? It makes me real dilemma - do we turn back and go for the D/I channel for circumnavigation east, or we explore him, pillaging his nets ☺
what if he builds 2 galleys and kill our galley?
or he builds only one and get lucky with 35% ?
you screwed nothing
who could guess that Ipecac is that close
and even if we knew, what we do with a single chariot?
on the other hand, Molach have nice worker and nice warrior-guarded city in reach...
and we got OB with him
but such is life - nothing is perfect
OT4E:
I thought about galleys, hardly possible that he had prebuilds, he whiped just 1 pop each
Even if he has galley, he needs to catch our drakkar
Not that easy, but he can cover resource or some bay
But we must prepare for sea battles, ipecac or Dantski can honor us with a visit once
I screwed suddenness
There is a lot of can be done with a single char, hopefully we will be able to do smth, but we will see
He will be able to do 2 turns before we can attack him
2metraninja: ☺ I was looking at our most south landmass, I think there is someone
OT4E:
Oh somebody else?
and there are tiles where galley with a single axe can raze some of our cities
yes, but this is just a feeling
did not saw anything
and do not accuse yourself, we went on circumnavigation, not to get someone by surprise
if he opens borders will be great
+8c
OT4E:
We probably see someone else very soon, I have just realized that it is the biggest advantage knowing others
2metraninja: why so you think?
about being advantage?
OT4E:
Someone will just open borders like Molach
And we wont go for his city
In trade
Or spoil fish
And tech discount
And seeing cities and especially capitals is very important in analysis
2metraninja: yes, it is nice
and map is quite cramped
so we will know everyone in no time
and do you still think we might lose circumnavigation?
those guys do not know any of their neighbors
OT4E:
About circumnavigation, as you remember from PB22 everyone was sailing with boats though the map was less naval. We cant give them any chance, and we must form standard of early circumnavigation.
About HG you are right, but it gives more than just whipped pop, it gives you speed, you get pop in new cities which you had to grow for 5-6 turns at least. And if there is a way to build it with minimum sacrifices it is reasonable to do it
I think ipecac whipped defensive units, because like zanth he doesnt know what is in.
Galleys are the best while defending from sea, but like an emergence measure they sux
2metraninja • 6:44
OT4E:
Ipecac hurried to finish turn and whipped again
Btw this stress, urgent slaving, extra maintenace can be destructive too
We dont even need to raze cities
From the other side once he realizes that he dont need units for the defense he can throw them into attack
Like in situation with Zanth, once we stop making threatening his cities we free his chars and have to worry about them
2metraninja • 9:22
Ipecac is on a separate landmass and I doubt he can actually have the bravery to attack us any soon
so his units are this - they are garrisons, he eventually pays for them (remember there is set number of free units) and he does not work tiles with the whipped population
about circumnavigation, I will eat my general's hat if someone actually beat us
OT4E:
If he slaves 10 units then realizes that he is still blocked by 2 galleys, he can come to the idea that he needs galleys too, and the next idea will be to check us
2metraninja: lol, he wont slave 10 units because he sees a single galley
OT4E:
I like that we have frightened him more than if we just peacefully traded
He must, how can he guard 4 cities?
2metraninja: That is because of your warlike and bloodthirsty nature
Lol, and Mack called me "freaking Chengiz Khan or something" in ISDG
OT4E:
No I like when all the neighbors are fairly fucked
Not when you give somebody mercy just because you failed to find him in time
2metraninja: Needing ten units slaved to guard four cities is quite extreme and unusual situation
OT4E:
Thats exxagerated a bit
2metraninja: Quite a bit
OT4E:
1 galley made Dantski to produce 5-6 axes
2metraninja: Man, he slaves like mad when he see us on his borders, how he will have the courage to come in our lair?
Dantski also lost two cities and needed to take them back
OT4E:
I have told you sequence, we pass through with the galley, pillage clam and dissappear
What will he do? Restore clam and give us chance to pillage it again?
Or make galley or trireme?
2metraninja: What is done is done, we need to decide (though i see you already have opinion) what to do with him
OT4E:
No I dont have
What is your opinion?
2metraninja: One way is as you say we pillage his nets to punish him for refusing to trade with us
OT4E:
We have to choices: 1 - declare war and walkthrough or 2- turn back and got east directly
2metraninja: This include going further north, which we believe is the wrong direction for circumnavi
Yes
OT4E:
I am sure we can pass to the east by any of that way
2metraninja: But with our quick galley, it might take only 2-3 turns to pillage and turn back to go through channel
You think it will be the same going north and going around ipecac as if we have to go back to the channel?
OT4E:
I think it will take 2-3 turns more, but we know more about ipecac, more shitbricking for him
We wont get stuck into the wall of ice as I believe
As I understand the mapmakers thought
What do you think? 1 or 2? Or smth else?
2metraninja: I would love to ruin his nets
if he refuses to trade with us
I do not like that we surround ourselves with enemies
but if he does not want even to trade with us, what use we have of him?
plus, it have snowball effect - I think ipecac would had opened borders if it was for example Dantski asking him for OBs
but we made ourselves reputation for being bullies and people's first reaction is to show us some stand
like tough nut
OT4E:
Strange reaction, we insist on peace sending him ob twice, but he himself chooses the different way
He has many unprotected things then, he knows he cant leave them so
So we attack him and pillage
OT4E:
How could it happen that molach has only 3 cities?
2metraninja:Who knows
OT4E:
I was dissappointed
2metraninja: He starts slow?
Lol
At least we are not on strike
OT4E:
Btw when I planted last city, we got no extra maintenance from it
Just 3 coins it was producing by itself
2metraninja: I am still not 100 % decided to attack ipecac, maybe he ob after all if we turn back and away from him?
Yes, newly planted cities are instant gain for us
OT4E:
When they grow
We gain if they are size 3 and higher
I doubt he changes his mind, but if so of course we either do not touch him or pass through to reveal his land
We dont know if he has landmass to expand without interacting with us
2metraninja: he will have.
OT4E: We gave him clear sign and chance
So no pity
For him I dunno what is better to feed strong neighbor or to suffer right now
The problem is that our general was born just 2 turns ago
So he can find out that our city is close
2metraninja: yes, there is a good chance he will make the connection
and I know he will prefer to oppose us in any way possible
he is not in great shape
and will not feel like making gains for himself to raise above others, more like keeping others down, so we all are in somewhat the same category
Might be too spoilery.
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