[Spoilers] It's time to play the music

[Old Harry]

How hard can micro be with only three tiles to improve?

What do you think about moving se for fewer forests but more riverside and more micro decisions?

[wetbandit]

What do you think about moving se for fewer forests but more riverside and more micro decisions?

[ipecac]

How hard can micro be with only three tiles to improve?

What do you think about moving se for fewer forests but more riverside and more micro decisions?

I say move the scout there first.

But yeah, it should be better otherwise your capital would suck commerce-wise. And because I'm not in charge of micro

[Old Harry]

How hard can micro be with only three tiles to improve?

What do you think about moving se for fewer forests but more riverside and more micro decisions?

I say move the scout there first.

But yeah, it should be better otherwise your capital would suck commerce-wise. And because I'm not in charge of micro

1. I'm expecting two to four chops before the workers move on to improve the second city, which means we can prioritise commerce over the trees .

2. If you aren't in charge of micro, Fintourist is busy having a life, Wetbandit has retired from Civ and is just here to point and laugh, I'm just taking care of the naming scheme and THH can't even load the mod* who is in charge of micro?

3. Sandboxes for Qin and Sury. If you're bored and eg all your other games have ended and you have the right mod installed.

4. It looks like we're oop north, meaning little jungle and less incentive to Praet-rush.

*

Actually he can, but then the question is less dramatic.

[wetbandit]

[Old Harry]

Thoughts

As expected Qin feels slower, but mostly because Fishing isn't much use while Mining is cheaper than Agri/Wheel. Going Agri-BW the worker sits around waiting for ~4 turns. Going BW-Agri he wastes 2 turns and completes the farm ~13 turns later, so we're way worse off for foodhammers.

- SIP Worker-Settler completes eot24 with 1 chop, no roads and 9h overflow.
- SIP Worker-Worker-Settler completes eot28 with 3 chops, no roads and 21h overflow.
- 1SE Worker-Settler completes eot25 with 1 chop, no roads and 15h overflow (see pic).
- 1SE Worker-Worker-Settler completes eot29 with 4 chops, no roads and 44h overflow.



Sury gets a quicker start and builds roads while waiting for BW to come in, so it feels better.

- SIP Worker-Settler completes eot23 with 1 chop, 2 roads and 17h overflow.
- SIP Worker-Worker-Settler completes eot25 with 2 chops, 3 roads and no overflow.
- 1SE Worker-Settler completes eot24 with a chop, 20h overflow and 2 roads for the settler to use.
- 1SE Worker-Worker-Settler completes eot26 with 2 or 3 chops, 4 or 24h overflow and 4 roads (see pic).


With Sury I feel like Worker-Settler-Worker is better, using the overflow and a chop to get the second worker and more out of the EXP bonus.

Surprisingly Sury's only a turn ahead of Qin at my end point. Add another turn for the lack of roads and discount some commerce if Qin's second city isn't linked to the first. Then when pottery comes in (~turn 40) Qin would start to catch up - we'll probably build two granaries for every three workers over the first 100 turns and the granaries get +100% compared to the Workers +33%. So I'm going to call that a slight edge for Sury, but not earth-shattering. So if they're starting at a similar pace do we want the +50% wonders, +100% forges & walls and CG1+Drill 1, Praet and Forum or +2 culture per city, +100% Harbor, Market, Grocer, Observatory, Aqueduct, Theater and Colosseum, Vulture and Ziggurat?

If the visible land is anything to go by then hammers aren't going to be hard to find, while commerce will, so that pushes toward Sury too.

Other thoughts:
- Cottage or farm the riverside spice? A farm can be replaced when Calendar comes in...
- Moving 1SE has the added benefit of not having a resource bubble in front of the capital.
- I wonder which one is Wetbandit and which is Ipecac?

[Dreylin]

I'm not even sure which is Waldorf and which is Statler....

[wetbandit]

Conveniently, Waldorf is close enough to wetbandit, who is also short and fat. Natch!

FWIW, you still get +100% on aqueducts, theaters, and colosseums.

Looks like Sury is the slightly better option. You also get to save early hammers on monuments (big savings!) and with all of these forested hills, you're going to need armies of workers. Having early roads also helpful to speed settling and development. Loads of discounts on mid-game buildings and even a 25% discount on courthouses. Farming the spices also intriguing. I like repeating things when I have nothing useful to add.

[ipecac]

3. Sandboxes for Qin and Sury. If you're bored and eg all your other games have ended and you have the right mod installed.

Nope, nope and nope.

So if they're starting at a similar pace do we want the +50% wonders, +100% forges & walls and CG1+Drill 1, Praet and Forum or +2 culture per city, +100% Harbor, Market, Grocer, Observatory, Aqueduct, Theater and Colosseum, Vulture and Ziggurat?

Personally though EXP/CRE is great I wouldn't pick it because it gives few long-term advantages. But I'm a newb so...

[Old Harry]

Conveniently, Waldorf is close enough to wetbandit, who is also short and fat. Natch!

FWIW, you still get +100% on aqueducts, theaters, and colosseums.

Looks like Sury is the slightly better option. You also get to save early hammers on monuments (big savings!) and with all of these forested hills, you're going to need armies of workers. Having early roads also helpful to speed settling and development. Loads of discounts on mid-game buildings and even a 25% discount on courthouses. Farming the spices also intriguing. I like repeating things when I have nothing useful to add.

Can I be Fozzie Bear?

I don't think I'll be building more than one of those struck-through buildings - so no point considering them.

Normally I'd cottage the spice, but we're relatively low on food here (just +7 I think with few flat grass tiles) and might want to share the wheat or sheep. Also I suspect everyone will have a set of trading resources like the spices to share at calendar and I hate bulldozing cottages...

Good point about how much worker labour we'll need too. As for a long term trait Ipecac - being able to expand quickly, push borders and then use ziggurats to cover that expansion *should* give us a bit of a leg up. As long as I don't get rushed again :P.