[SPOILERS] Mardoc decides what kind of loser he wants to be

[Mardoc]

EDIT: That'd leave these leaders (27)

Dain/Valledia
Keelyn/Furia
Sabathiel/Capria
Alexis
Mahala
Ethne/Einos/Thessalonica
Cassiel
Tasunke
Auric
Arturus
Hannah
Thessa/Arendal
Garrim Gyr
Varn
Tebryn/Os-Gabella/Averax
Sandalphon/Shekinah
Rivanna/Faeryl

That's plenty, 27 leaders and 17 civs to choose from. Basically the only totally "banned" civs in this sense would be Clan and Kuriotates.

Mapmakers are also banning Auric and Hannah. So, let's do a first pass sort. Still want to wait on the starting screenie for a final ranking but I can at least cross off the super-weak or boring civs from my list.

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Possibles:

Keelyn (sum,cre)/Furia (raid, cha, barb) - Balseraphs are quite tempting. Nice mix of early/mid game power due to worldspell/puppets/loki. Keelyn's had a summoner nerf, but Furia...well, Barb hurts, I think (not sure with raging barbs on whether the beaker hit or lack of need for garrisons weighs more) but Raiders pairs horribly well with puppets, and Cha might well help with getting through the early game. Biggest handicap: Cha is a middling econ trait, Raiders isn't one at all...Balseraph is a solid civ but growth seems likely to be slow.

Mahala (Exp, Rai, Ing) of the Doviello: I've gained a surprising amount of respect for the Doviello from the duel league, especially Mahala. Expansive is probably the best trait in the game, especially on a big map. Raiders isn't quite as useful until you want to kill someone, then it's great. The Doviello melee line super cheap upgrades anywhere - well, it's not going to mean a winning early rush with this map, but it does mean cheap barb defenses. Just need to build beastmen and upgrade as tech permits/situation demands. WS is solid - can either be a panic button or a 'you die now' war upgrade. Combined with Raiders and wolf pack spell, a neighbor can have a very, very, bad day .


Thessa (Exp,Arc?)/Arendal (Spi,Cre) of the Ljosalfar: Notorious for performing worse than they seem like they should, probably because of how long the elf econ takes to ramp up (and elf worker pace). Well...big map, raging barbs, there's a chance, right? I lean Thessa if I go with them, because of my respect for Expansive...assuming I remember her traits correctly.

Varn of the Malakim: Varn's gone out of style lately. And really, there's no particular reason for that. Spi/Cre/Adaptive is still quite handy, and the Malakim still have a lot of little boosts here and there that add up pretty big. I'm very tempted by Varn. Might partially depend on the start: if Bob gives us floodplains and oases, he'll have a fast start.

Garrim Gyr of the Luchiurp: Luchiurp are in an odd state. I think they've gotten the most buffs and nerfs out of anyone in EitB. Their uniques are even more unique than most, hard to judge. Raging barbs/Monarch at least sounds like good Barnaxus-training conditions...if I'm willing to try to use golems.

Tebryn/Os-Gabella/Averax of the Sheaim: Much buffed lately. Barb/Expansive seems good on the map as described, so I'm tempted by Averax. Buildable Mobius Witches mean that he's got a lategame in addition to his strong Pyre Zombie era, although it's a lot of hammer investment to actually get to them. I'm a little burned out on them from the SG, but I'll probably end up with Averax on my list but low.

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Unlikely:

Ethne/Einos/Thessalonica of the Elohim: Seem somewhat stronger than the Bannor, but still fundamentally pretty boring. Inexplicably always seem to underperform: I can't figure out why, because they have a lot of boosts. Maybe it's a consequence of being boring and hence not getting people's best effort? Maybe...a lot of their bonuses are back-end, win-more sorts of things: Tolerant is a great example. Double the UU's, but only if you're already doing well enough to conquer someone. Same with Sanctuary - turns a winning war into a rout, but can only delay your loss if someone is ahead enough to be invading you. I don't think I want them, but I'm not going to rule them out entirely.

Sandalphon (Phi, Ind)/Shekinah (Cre,Arc) of the Sidar: Big map, Raging Barbs give potential to the Sidar (again). As does Arcane. But...I did just play them. Hard to say if that leans me more toward 'therefore I want to try again and get it right this time' or 'therefore go with someone else' . I'm less enthusiastic about Phi than I was - it's freaking hard to make more than maybe three Great People even as Phi - and Sidar want the arcane line no matter what else they're doing. Overall, waffling on these but if I go with them, probably will take Shekinah this time for variety.

Rivanna (Org,Sum)/Faeryl (Arc,Rai) of the Svartalfar: Without Volanna as an option, Sinister is merely useful, not awesome. Still interesting if I want to try out the elf econ...but I think Exp outweighs Org, especially on Monarch.

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Uninteresting:

Alexis (Agg,Phi) of the Calabim: Calabim are always strong. Agg might actually mean something with Raging barbs, Phi is decent. I've played a lot of Calabim, though, would prefer something else. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see her come out to play here, and wouldn't be surprised if she does well, either.

Sabathiel/Capria of the Bannor: Have a chance, but I just don't like the Bannor. Cottage econ isn't horrible anymore but Bannor just aren't that interesting and demagogs can't compete with summons. Only reason to consider them is leader traits.

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Just...no:

Cassiel of the Grigori: Solid but boring. I don't like bending a game around an adventurer. No religions isn't a horrible handicap, but it is one. Cassiel has pretty good traits, though.

Dain/Valledia of the Amurites: Generally interesting if they make it to late game, but they never make it to late game. Big map/raging barbs/mapmaker trickery makes them ever so slightly more possible...but realistically it's still not going to happen. NOPE

Tasunke of the Hippus: Great dueler. Not so much for a big map FFA. Not likely to be invading anyone while Warcry is still an auto-win, no econ traits nor much civ-econ power makes this not going to work.

Arturus of the Khazad: I think Khazad still need a buff. Trebs are interesting but not interesting enough to make up for the vault/REX nerf and lack of magic. REX nerf hurts especially bad on a big map. NOPE

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So, I've got six civs in my 'possibles' bucket, due to both pure power considerations and ennui considerations. That's more than enough, given the field is only five. Just need to decide which way to jump, which partially depends on the starting screenie. Still, my ordering will likely look something like this:

High likelihood:
Thessa of the Ljo
Varn of the Malakim

Medium:
Furia of the Balseraphs
Garrim Gyr of the Luchiurp.

Low:

Averax of the Sheaim
Mahala of the Doviello

Why this particular ordering? Well...primarily, I've never actually pulled out the Ljo or Malakim that I can remember. Haven't played Luch either but they're less exciting. Sheaim and Doviello could do quite well but I've played them both recently. Secondary consideration: big map, raging barbs/monarch, calls for a mostly economic style. By the time we're fighting, the main factor is probably who has the most/best units, not Agg/Raiders/Worldspells

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So, anyone tempted to join me? I'm willing to bend my civ choices somewhat if there's someone you really want to see.

[Qgqqqqq]

Many small things may change, but the critical things will stay the same.

[Mardoc]

First question: Starting Settler promotion?

[Mardoc]

Alright, this took longer than I expected but fortunately the map isn't done yet so I'm not the bottleneck.

I ended up with this:

Thessa of the Ljosalfar
Varn Gosam of the Malakim
Averax of the Sheaim
Garrim Gyr of the Luchiurp
Mahala of the Doviello

Left Furia off the list mostly because I'm skeptical about the value of Cha as an only economic trait. The order of the rest...honestly, it's not a reflection of power at all, just personal interest. Ljo top because it sounds fun to start with Expansive for horizontal and then Guardian of Nature for vertical growth - and relatively easy to maintain focus. Varn because I want to revive the Malakim in the RB meta. Meanwhile, Mahala is low because I've used her in the duel league and Garrim is low because I just don't like the Luch that much.

[Mardoc]

Also, from what I see of the start...I will almost certainly be moving away from the coast if I get the elves - and possibly/probably if I get someone else. Don't want the coast tiles in a capital city, don't want the OO vulnerability. It's unfortunate to strand the fish but I can keep all the rest of the good stuff. Hand drawn map with a river - looks like I'd be replacing coast tiles with riverside grass and forests, likely good quality land that can be used early and late.

Maybe with Malakim I would stay put. OO into the worldspell has been shown to be a pretty strong move for them, which would redeem some of the Fishing research cost. Not if I find any additional floodplains, though...coast is still not good terrain, particularly early game.

First thought is to the grass hill to the SE, but I'll send the scout there first.

[Mardoc]

Ahhhh alright:


Plako: Mahala of the Doviello

Dave: Keelyn of the Balseraphs

Auro: Alexis of the Calabim

Mardoc: Thessa of the Ljo

Jale: Garrim of the Luchiurp

Particularly want to know if anyone grabbed a civ I wrote off as weak, so I can figure out what's wrong with my judgment .

Nope! Four from my short list, plus the Calabim who were only off my list due to ennui.

So who do I fear from this crowd? Well, honestly...everyone. DaveV is the closest to 'weak' out of any of them, and that's not very. Plus he's got Keelyn with the insane range puppets to play with.

Notably, I think my civ is the latest-game of them all. Expansive ought to help me get there, along with my worldspell. Elf economy and Arcane makes me potentially powerful once I can train mages. But I don't have any insta-summoners like the Luch and Calabim, nor the Doviello ability to manufacture an army from a pittance of hammers and some gold. Arguably Balseraphs might be slower than me, depending on how well DaveV can use Cre and Revelry, but they're the only ones.

So my focus ought to be primarily to grow and survive and wait for opportunity. Start off with Expansive-fueled greedy city snatching. Research up to Fellowship of Leaves and Guardian of Nature ASAP so I can grow my cities. Then pivot to the arcane line and build mages to win the game.

Techwise, I think I need to be careful to pare my tech down to the bare minimum. Elf econ and mage line is already pretty expensive. I have the very nice fact that Guardian of Nature, alone, is usually more happiness than a civ can use, plus a lot of food and hammers. I can skip or delay most luxuries, Sanitation, maybe even Calendar.

Second thought: no, gotta have at least one of Calendar or Mining to fuel settlers with. Expansive seems to call for Mining.

I need to have Agriculture, and Crafting, certainly, for the capital. Mining, Bronze? Er, maybe - although I might be able to substitute Archery and lumbermills for security and hammers, depending on terrain. Hunting and Mysticism for Fellowship and Guardian. Education, followed by Philosophy and Priesthood, should give me all that's vital for the elf econ. Plus KotE to start training adepts to be the army that wins me the game. Gotta look over the tech tree to see if there's any prereqs I'm forgetting about or cheap valuable techs I shouldn't actually skip.

Also, a fairly dedicated beeline seems to call for a bulb or two. First thought is that Priesthood is a good target, being both expensive and wanted ASAP. I should spend a little time with the bulb lists too, though, to ensure that it's possible and the best reasonable target.

After that, go back and fill in the gaps. Resources, Trade, etc.

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Basic principles of the elf economy:
End state is an ancient forest on every tile, with an improvement on it, being worked by a size ~20+ city which uses the food surplus either for more cities, or for specialists. That city gets its health from the forests and happiness from Guardian of Nature (with perhaps a little bit of help from resources and religion). Default choice for an improvement is a cottage, but it's perfectly reasonable to mix in mines and lumbermills where I want extra hammers, or farms where I want extra specialists.

Not an aristo-farm econ, because that defeats the value of the forests by stripping away the free hammer. Fortunately a cottage economy is much more viable in EitB than before.

Every single tile on the map can be used. Ancient forests add enough yield that even tundra and plains tiles are profitable - and of course deserts can become plains and ice become tundra. Which in turn means I'll want to make sure I settle enough cities to work every single tile I can reach.

However, it takes a while to get there. Priesthood isn't a particularly early tech, and even once you start, it takes ~30 turns to grow New forests to regular, and other ~30 to Ancient (I think, but am not certain, that this was scaled by gamespeed in EitB. Hope so!) Same with cottages: 70 turns from a cottage to town, or 35 with Foreign trade. On top of that, I've got slow workers and forest planting isn't exactly the speediest process either.

So I've got to start off with a fairly conventional economy (well, probably a cottage economy rather than aristofarms so I don't have to redo it all) and plan to transition later on. Save worker turns by making improvements *before* the PoL put a forest on the relevant tile, since forests add 3 or 4 worker turns. Despite temptation, I shouldn't march from one side of the empire to the other but instead plant forests dispersed - to give my cities time to grow up to match their improved happy caps.

On the bright side, there's some pretty decent military associated with this path. The worldspell, of course, plus randomly spawned Treants and also Fawns -> Satyrs, elven forest movement, Hunters, and Priests of Leaves. As long as I pay attention to the overall situation and also to tactics, I should have strong mobile units, before I transition to summoners. Granted, a lot of this is a defensive army since it needs forests and roads for mobility (and to get the first strike, especially Satyrs)...but I can go on the offense later with mages and archmages.

[Mardoc]

Already realized an interesting aspect to ponder: what's the limit on the elf econ, really? Priests and forests? Or cottages? Should I maybe push for Trade ahead of FoL? Or at least ahead of Priesthood? Both per-city bonuses and boosting cottage growth would be very handy.

I should probably also add Cartography to my plans. City States can last me the entire game - or I can maybe swap to Republic later once the basics are secured. Save on maintenance and all the associated mitigation (markets, courthouses) and just focus on Expansive to the max.

Did confirm that Priesthood is second only to Corruption of Spirit in the GPro bulb list, so I'm going to plan to get a GPRo as my first or second great person for that.

[Qgqqqqq]

I think it is rarely worth building a lumbermill on a forest. I'd much rather mix in workshops.

[Mardoc]

I think it is rarely worth building a lumbermill on a forest. I'd much rather mix in workshops.

A classic example of It Depends .

I believe workshops cost a food but give an extra commerce compared to a lumbermill. Maybe an extra hammer too in v12, now that I think about it. It's true that elven econ means you have food out your pointy ears, but there may be cases where I need all I can get.

More specifically, it depends on tech. IIRC workshops require Construction, while lumbermills require Archery. Archery also gives me a Hero and 4/5 archers, while Construction gives me...chained farms? I don't think elves can build catapults even if I wanted to.

All that said, it's not likely to be relevant for quite a while. At first I'm going to want a normal economy. Even once I do start with forested improvements, mostly I'm going to want to just plant forests on top of my normal economy (which will include mines, of course, in my hammer cities).

[Qgqqqqq]

The Start: