AW 4 Player PBEM/PB?

[scooter]

I've finally got a bit of an itch to play a game of Civ again, but I want something lightweight since I don't quite have the time that I used to. Any interest in a revival of the 4 player AW small map game style? Something akin to PBEM34, which was a really fun setup.

Basic Pitch:
*PBEM (or sequential Pitboss)
*Quick speed
*4 players
*Always War
*Map: 4 fully mirrored plots of land. Room for roughly 4-5 cities per player max - very tight. Reasonably lush so the game doesn't take forever. All strategic resources available in each mirrored plot.
*Snake pick (any sort of random rolling could very possibly decide the game on T0)

Other stuff like vanilla vs mod or ban lists I could go either way about.

Anyone have interest in playing (or map-making) this game?

[BRickAstley]

I will map make.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I've finally got a bit of an itch to play a game of Civ again, but I want something lightweight since I don't quite have the time that I used to. Any interest in a revival of the 4 player AW small map game style? Something akin to PBEM34, which was a really fun setup.

Basic Pitch:
*PBEM (or sequential Pitboss)
*Quick speed
*4 players
*Always War
*Map: 4 fully mirrored plots of land. Room for roughly 4-5 cities per player max - very tight. Reasonably lush so the game doesn't take forever. All strategic resources available in each mirrored plot.
*Snake pick (any sort of random rolling could very possibly decide the game on T0)

Other stuff like vanilla vs mod or ban lists I could go either way about.

Anyone have interest in playing (or map-making) this game?

I would love an Always War game, ++ on a small map. Very keen.

[scooter]

Nice, thanks Brick for volunteering, and glad to have you REM if that's a signup. Is there any real reason not to do sequential pitboss rather than PBEM now that hosting an additional pitboss is pretty easy these days?

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Nice, thanks Brick for volunteering, and glad to have you REM if that's a signup. Is there any real reason not to do sequential pitboss rather than PBEM now that hosting an additional pitboss is pretty easy these days?

It is. I guess pitboss for the first 25-30 turns or so has the advantage of not really needing a turn order thus speeding it up. Plus easy to see who the hold up is? Makes wonders/religions slightly fairer too. Downside is no obvious turn notification save for the first player so that might slow down later play?

Pitboss probably is better I guess but I'm still not fully familiar with the pros/cons

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Actually there are massive advantages to going last in a pitboss different to the pbem, where all production takes place at the end of the turn rather than when you end your turn. This would probably be worse on a small map. Eg you go first. I then attack you. We then both get our production.

You open up and see that I have attacked you, and switch prod to military units - in a pbem that would happen before the enemy goes, pitboss after.

In a usual pitboss this isn't much of an issue (could get first or second half) but if it is enforced the player randomised to go first is at a big disadvantage.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm really tempted to play, but I want to keep to one game at a time. If EitB46 finishes before this fills up, count me in.


Otherwise, I can review the map, BRick.

[Qgqqqqq]

Actually there are massive advantages to going last in a pitboss different to the pbem, where all production takes place at the end of the turn rather than when you end your turn. This would probably be worse on a small map. Eg you go first. I then attack you. We then both get our production.

You open up and see that I have attacked you, and switch prod to military units - in a pbem that would happen before the enemy goes, pitboss after.

In a usual pitboss this isn't much of an issue (could get first or second half) but if it is enforced the player randomised to go first is at a big disadvantage.

REM, this is true of Simultaneous Pitboss, not Sequential. Sequential functions almost-exactly like a PBEM. The advantages are that you can log in and look around whenever, games don't get lost in circulation/you can set a timer, and there's no suspicion of cheating (unless your name is Memphis). The disadvantages are the (traditional) technical issues, getting chained to Civstats, and not being able to play offline.

The last, Scooter, is my main reservation with it. I can safely play a PBEM on data, which makes me feel more comfortable committing to 1t/day. But that depends on the player.


Edit: Of course, some of the advantages of Simul Pitboss - spamming out turns, no need for a turn order, etc. - are knocked out by Sequential.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Actually there are massive advantages to going last in a pitboss different to the pbem, where all production takes place at the end of the turn rather than when you end your turn. This would probably be worse on a small map. Eg you go first. I then attack you. We then both get our production.

You open up and see that I have attacked you, and switch prod to military units - in a pbem that would happen before the enemy goes, pitboss after.

In a usual pitboss this isn't much of an issue (could get first or second half) but if it is enforced the player randomised to go first is at a big disadvantage.

REM, this is true of Simultaneous Pitboss, not Sequential. Sequential functions almost-exactly like a PBEM. The advantages are that you can log in and look around whenever, games don't get lost in circulation/you can set a timer, and there's no suspicion of cheating (unless your name is Memphis). The disadvantages are the (traditional) technical issues, getting chained to Civstats, and not being able to play offline.

The last, Scooter, is my main reservation with it. I can safely play a PBEM on data, which makes me feel more comfortable committing to 1t/day. But that depends on the player.


Edit: Of course, some of the advantages of Simul Pitboss - spamming out turns, no need for a turn order, etc. - are knocked out by Sequential.

Oh ok then make it a sequential pitboss really unless there are connection issues. I assume the timer is for each player and not the whole turn as such? Definitely like the idea of the turn not getting lost!

If it is a small game then surely the data demands wouldn't be that much? And once the turn is downloaded, it would take minimal data?

[scooter]

Oh ok then make it a sequential pitboss really unless there are connection issues. I assume the timer is for each player and not the whole turn as such? Definitely like the idea of the turn not getting lost!

If it is a small game then surely the data demands wouldn't be that much? And once the turn is downloaded, it would take minimal data?

Yep, the timer is per-player. I think the norm would be to make it be something fairly long (12-18h or so) so long as each player is able to commit to actually keep things moving at 1T a day - longer timer just to avoid screwing a player if the turn comes early. Basically as long as players play it like a PBEM (and we coordinate timezones) rather than always using up the whole timer, you're golden.

You kind of mentioned this already, but I also really like the chance to login at any time, particularly in an AW game like this. Say the turn order goes A-B-C-D, and you're player A while in the middle of an ongoing battle with B. Normal PBEM, you've got to wait all the way until C and D play just to see how the big turn went down, let alone even play it. In this scenario, you could login after B plays to inspect the damage and at least start to formulate a plan while you wait for C and D to play, even if you can't actually do anything.

The other perk about this game style is the map stays small, which means even in the late game it doesn't take a total eternity to download the gamestate. So that's a plus.



Q - sure you don't want to join? The smaller map means things don't overflow into massive turns quite like they do in traditional PB games - this game is easy to play on the side. When I played 34s, I controlled half the map and was in a perpetual 2v1 war (against me) in a late-game setting which is the absolute worst-case scenario for tedious turns, and even then I almost never crested 25 minutes or so. Nothing like the 2 hour horror turns I regularly experienced towards the end of PB13.