Advance Wars by Web Games

[Cheater Hater]

The issue with capturing an HQ turning properties neutral is that it creates a sort of reverse prisoner's dilemma. Any player will invest everything they can in protecting their HQ by necessity, even if their most valuable holdings are located some distance away. The advantage would go not necessary to whoever captures the HQ, which then simply becomes another city, but rather who is best positioned to capture the many suddenly neutral (and undefended) properties which result. Therefore players have much less incentive to go for the difficult-to-capture HQ and more to hang back and wait for someone else to do the heavy lifting, which isn't ideal for a game which encourages a quick battle pace.

I think by far the worst thing about AW is the utter lack of an attempt to balance the COs. Far too many of them are either useless in all but niche circumstances or have powers which utterly upend the game in ways few if any maps can truly account for.

That's why I said the first person to eliminate a player could possibly win--obviously that means you have to care about other conflicts (I admit I didn't follow the FFA that closely), and it could lead to some kingmaking on the part of the losing player (though that already exists, if you're in the position to suicide all your units in response to a HQ threat).

The diversity in COs is what causes the imbalance--if indirect units are better than direct units, Grit is going to be better than Max. Obviously there's some number balancing that could help (making Colin 80/90 and a 3-3 power bar, making Kanbei 120/120 with a 4-4 power bar, giving Sensei 7 HP foot soldiers on his powers), but some of it's fundamental--is Grit really Grit if you take away his indirect range increase? If you want them to have meaningful bonuses, they are probably going to be overpowered where those aspects are focused (Sami on large maps, Grit on maps with chokepoints, Jess on land-only maps). On the other hand, if you lessen those benefits, you make the game more boring, and it's harder to break through a stall if you can't leverage your unique strengths well. Look at AW:DoR: sure, the COs are certainly impactful if you use them well, but they're relatively insignificant (so much so that the campaign doesn't introduce them until past the halfway point), the day-to-day impact isn't that big (especially over a small area), and the CO powers aren't nearly as astounding as AW:DS's SCOPs, or even some COPs (so much so that some don't even have them).

[BRickAstley]

Of course, now that we're getting into it, we're realizing the obvious problems with the interface, it comes back to BRick's original goal--any updates on your clone/prototype?

There were a lot of misclicks in that game, though--we need to hurry up on that AW clone Brick

Yeah yeah I know.

Programwise: I haven't done anything in about a week, work has been crazy. But I'm working on some tutorials to learn specific scripting concepts I want to leverage, aiming to start a super rough prototype in the next week.

Designwise: I have been working through some ideas in my head, cause if you aren't doing a blatant ripoff, which I don't want to do, you need a way it is distinctly different without losing the basic charm. I have some good ideas but too rough to want to share right now.

Overall: It won't be fast but I still am very much planning to make *something*. Work is supposed to lull for the next few weeks so we'll see what comes out.

[Bobchillingworth]

That's why I said the first person to eliminate a player could possibly win--obviously that means you have to care about other conflicts (I admit I didn't follow the FFA that closely), and it could lead to some kingmaking on the part of the losing player (though that already exists, if you're in the position to suicide all your units in response to a HQ threat).

The diversity in COs is what causes the imbalance--if indirect units are better than direct units, Grit is going to be better than Max. Obviously there's some number balancing that could help (making Colin 80/90 and a 3-3 power bar, making Kanbei 120/120 with a 4-4 power bar, giving Sensei 7 HP foot soldiers on his powers), but some of it's fundamental--is Grit really Grit if you take away his indirect range increase? If you want them to have meaningful bonuses, they are probably going to be overpowered where those aspects are focused (Sami on large maps, Grit on maps with chokepoints, Jess on land-only maps). On the other hand, if you lessen those benefits, you make the game more boring, and it's harder to break through a stall if you can't leverage your unique strengths well. Look at AW:DoR: sure, the COs are certainly impactful if you use them well, but they're relatively insignificant (so much so that the campaign doesn't introduce them until past the halfway point), the day-to-day impact isn't that big (especially over a small area), and the CO powers aren't nearly as astounding as AW:DS's SCOPs, or even some COPs (so much so that some don't even have them).

Giving victory to the first player to eliminate another isn't a good idea. In the FFA Brick almost eliminated me via capturing my HQ two or three turns after I eliminated Scooter. I was able to eliminate his forces, but it was a near thing, and until that point the outcome of the game was still very much in doubt. It's also possible to eliminate a player via HQ who has already lost the majority of their properties to someone else, which is much less unbalancing.


Put me in the camp of those who preferred the DoR COs. Most of them favored certain play styles (my personal favorite was Waylon), but none of them were straightjackets for the player, and most were viable on any given map (air specialists excluded). I think that's the ideal, you want enough differences that the COs aren't simply cosmetically opposed, but not so much divergence that you end up with someone like Drake, who sucks on like 90% of maps and utterly dominates the rest.

[BRickAstley]

I feel like I need to play Days of Ruin to try and confirm this, but just reading through the CO list for DoR, the static and triggered CO Powers make me want to fall asleep, there's none of that wonderfdul flavor to them. Surely you can have distinction and flavor as well as balance right?

I do like the static CO powers having a range around a deploy-able CO though. Another balance slider, and promotes more interesting turn to turn tactics.

[Bobchillingworth]

I feel like I need to play Days of Ruin to try and confirm this, but just reading through the CO list for DoR, the static and triggered CO Powers make me want to fall asleep, there's none of that wonderfdul flavor to them. Surely you can have distinction and flavor as well as balance right?

I do like the static CO powers having a range around a deploy-able CO though. Another balance slider, and promotes more interesting turn to turn tactics.

Ah, I should probably mention here that a significant part of why DoR had nerfed (or "balanced " :P ) powers was because you could level up your units. Each unit could level up to three times, and IIRC got a 5% overall strength bonus each time. That didn't matter too much for something like an Infantry, but combined with CO zone bonuses it was a pretty big deal for the heavier hitters. It also encouraged players to play a little more conservatively with their better units, an MD Tank with "elite" status or whatever was quite a bit more valuable than its nominal points cost, since that strength bonus could start letting it one-shot Tanks and AA.

[Cheater Hater]

I feel like I need to play Days of Ruin to try and confirm this, but just reading through the CO list for DoR, the static and triggered CO Powers make me want to fall asleep, there's none of that wonderfdul flavor to them. Surely you can have distinction and flavor as well as balance right?

I do like the static CO powers having a range around a deploy-able CO though. Another balance slider, and promotes more interesting turn to turn tactics.

The weird thing is that since it's a post-global war, wasteland setting (as opposed to the more "happy-go-lucky" setting of the "original" trilogy), everyone needs to be more serious in the main storyline. Instead, most of the character development (especially for the villains) comes in the non-canon tips segments, where the characters actually get to have a little fun.

Yeah, leveling up units makes the CO abilities a little more impactful, and it also reduces some of the stagnation possibilities. It's a fine system, but IMO it moves the combat a little closer to Fire Emblem (in that you want to protect units), and I want my Advance Wars games to be Advance Wars, not Fire Emblem! Then again, I played my first Fire Emblem after DoR came out, so I don't know how I'd look at a new Advance Wars. Of course, they need to actually make another Advance Wars for that comparison to make sense--I assumed Nintendo's mobile initiative would be a perfect opportunity to release another one (even though it would mean I'd actually have to get a smartphone or tablet), but apparently they're releasing Fire Emblem instead. Seriously, just release a port of AW:DS or DoR on the 3DS with online play, that's all I ask!

[El Grillo]

Reading these threads prompted me to check out the series again. I played AW1 and AW2 many years ago, and what I've seen so far of Days of Ruin has been entertaining, too. Just thought I'd let you know that I'm lurking the 2v2 with interest, and I might join in at some point

[Fenn]

DoR's COs were definitely more balanced than their previous attempts, Isabella and Greyfield aside, but tying most CO abilities to a CO unit limited variety too much for my liking. You can't have a CO in the vein of Colin or Kanbei with that system (sure those two are broken, but that's a problem with the balancing, not concept), and I don't know how you'd translate someone like Lash into that system.

Personally, I don't mind if some COs are very rigid in what sort of playstyle they support. What CO you pick is essentially a playstyle choice, and if most COs are useful on most maps, that's enough in my mind. Of course some of the more extreme COs could be dialed back a bit; Grit would be more still be distinct if - for example - he had 110/100 indirects and 90/100 directs, only gaining bonus indirect range with his CO powers in a 2-4 bar. That version would be pretty similar to his old self, since you still wouldn't want to walk into his extended range if he had COP charged, but would (I think) be useful and balanced on all but the most open, tank-friendly maps.

[BRickAstley]

Ah, I should probably mention here that a significant part of why DoR had nerfed (or "balanced " :P ) powers was because you could level up your units. Each unit could level up to three times, and IIRC got a 5% overall strength bonus each time. That didn't matter too much for something like an Infantry, but combined with CO zone bonuses it was a pretty big deal for the heavier hitters. It also encouraged players to play a little more conservatively with their better units, an MD Tank with "elite" status or whatever was quite a bit more valuable than its nominal points cost, since that strength bonus could start letting it one-shot Tanks and AA.

Do you think that was a good change? My first instinct agrees with CH, that it steps over a bit into the RPG Leveling Up schema that I'm glad Advance wars doesn't have a lot of.

DoR's COs were definitely more balanced than their previous attempts, Isabella and Greyfield aside, but tying most CO abilities to a CO unit limited variety too much for my liking. You can't have a CO in the vein of Colin or Kanbei with that system (sure those two are broken, but that's a problem with the balancing, not concept), and I don't know how you'd translate someone like Lash into that system.

Personally, I don't mind if some COs are very rigid in what sort of playstyle they support. What CO you pick is essentially a playstyle choice, and if most COs are useful on most maps, that's enough in my mind. Of course some of the more extreme COs could be dialed back a bit; Grit would be more still be distinct if - for example - he had 110/100 indirects and 90/100 directs, only gaining bonus indirect range with his CO powers in a 2-4 bar. That version would be pretty similar to his old self, since you still wouldn't want to walk into his extended range if he had COP charged, but would (I think) be useful and balanced on all but the most open, tank-friendly maps.

Would it be too complex if you had COs that had 1) An overall effect 2) A CO Unit with a range of effect and 3) A CO power? Could players handle the extra interlocking pieces there without making the game too complex for what it is?

[BRickAstley]

Ideas for maps to play on in another game:

City Roadway Arena

Another 4p FFA, But I like the layout and base distribution of this one a lot more. Comments say that you could potentially play this one without CO bans, which is nice.

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Defender 4vs1

Does what it says on the tin. Can 4 people working together defeat one person with a huge funds and base advantage?