[LURKERS] Mr. Gradgrind's Review

[GermanJoey]

The real limiter of the slavery setup compared to hammer-from-tiles setup isn't average-output-per-turn but, as TBS pointed out earlier, happycap, as surprising as that would be. A city optimized to maximize the number of whips since game start could figure on maybe 25-30 total whips during the game duration, but the real number will probably be between 10-15 for most cities before they have to transition out the city towards a hammer-from-tiles setup.

Can't they get more whips out by building theater + colosseum and running culture slider?

Yeah, that's a good way, and there's also markets, barracks w/ nationhood, extra happy cap from missionaries and FR, etc. There's lots of different things you can do to squeeze out more whips, which is why I was thinkin' that you could theoretically figure a 25-30 max for the full game duration, assuming a ~150 turn game.

However, each bonus happy cap beyond the "free" happy cap (including from resources) costs you something. For example, spending hammers on buildings delays the point when your city is ready to pump units. Using cultural slider is essentially converting beakers into hammers, like cash rushing, except now the hammers come from whipping. Using nationhood or FR for happycap means you can't be in another civic in those columns. Etc, etc. So, in this scenario, each unit whip now costs (food to regrow + tile yield you could have gotten if you didn't whip), like normal, plus the cost of the extra happycap, which is something like ((culture-slider-if-it-were-beakers + civic-opportunity-cost)/cities-whipped-this-turn + turns-delayed-by-buildings). Eventually the "bonus term" will start to get too expensive.

For example, think about Dreylin running a 10% cultural slider when it looks like their breakeven-income point is around 15%. I don't know if that's solely because of whipping (it could also be that they don't want to use expensive rifles for city garrisons), but I'm sure some of it is. That'd mean that he's putting 2/3 of his commerce income into whip hammers!

[ipecac]

That makes sense. I was assuming commerce output would be minimal with a lot of Wealth and Research builds, and so the cost of running the slider would be low, but that may not be the case (haven't been paying close attention lately).

[GermanJoey]

lol, oh man... running wealth builds in order to feed the cultural slider in order to fuel an unhappiness bubble caused by excessive super-whips, which produce all your units.... now that's something amazing...

is it the ultimate Civ4 economy? or the roleplayers guide to reproducing the 2009 Wall Street crash?

[BRickAstley]

Realms Beyond: Coming up with innovative new economy schemas for a 11 year old game.

[The Black Sword]

It looks like their culture per turn increased by 12 when they ran 10% slider. So I guess if you have 2 or more unhappy faces that would be worth it.

[Fluffball]

Well I was right, that barb city in Gaspar's territory seems like it's going to turn into a major war between scooter and Dreylin. I repeat my prediction Dreylin seizes control of the area, but I wonder if it's at a detriment to the overall game. I honestly think the winner and loser of this game is determined right here. REM being the easy winner if a protracted war arises.

This is the turning point for all 3 teams I think. (Although I get the feeling scooter will be more willing to cede the losses and stick in the game, that is one possible outcome.)

[LucyFur]

Well I was right, that barb city in Gaspar's territory seems like it's going to turn into a major war between scooter and Dreylin. I repeat my prediction Dreylin seizes control of the area, but I wonder if it's at a detriment to the overall game. I honestly think the winner and loser of this game is determined right here. REM being the easy winner if a protracted war arises.

This is the turning point for all 3 teams I think. (Although I get the feeling scooter will be more willing to cede the losses and stick in the game, that is one possible outcome.)

Good call on that, I wasn't thinking this city was a big deal. But Dreylin and (particularly) OT4E sure have taken offense!

I think scooter will take peace if it's offered. During those 10 turns of truce he'd be able to get assembly line researched as planned, factories started, and infantry online. Then he's (presumably) safe from war for a while, until he can tech up to panzers and go on the offensive.

Pindicator's in an interesting position here too. If scooter and Dreylin get into a protracted war, he could have a chance to take a bite out of one or the other, or maybe even both?

Regarding the other powers? Well it sure seems like Donovan has decided against attacking REM. Hopefully we'll get an update this weekend to see what's going on; maybe he's just waiting for reinforcements. And it'll be interesting to see what happens if REM decides to go for some Gaspar scraps and how Dreylin subsequently reacts.

Exciting times all around. Even though I'm not much of a Civ 4 player I am still fascinated by the slow-burn drama unfolding here.

[The Black Sword]

Well it seems like Gaspar/Noble are pretty much neutralised now and the Khmer still appear have a massive power advantage. It'd probably be a mistake for them not to use it somewhere, though I doubt it's enough for a full scale invasion. The other teams don't really have to match their power but they need to make sure that someone else is a more attractive target at least.

[Wyatan]

If Dreyin/OT4E stop at the former barb city, I believe Scoollla will accept peace and that'll be the end of it. Might serve as a wake-up call.
On the other hand, if Dreylin/OT4E push on to the island city, it should trigger a full war: Scoollla cannot afford to lose that island, as it would make their whole core vulnerable.

[Mardoc]

Scooter's certainly pragmatic enough that he'd be willing to lose a city and sign peace if that's what's best for his civ. The first question is whether Dreylin would let him. He's paid for an army, after all, might as well use it.

The main question is whether Scooter signing peace is actually best for his civ. Dreylin has warred with all of his neighbors so far; I can't imagine any of them would hesitate to declare on him if they think they could win. We know that he's planning to play nice with REM, but I don't see any reason for REM to believe that. A Scooter hot war might be just the ticket to create a dogpile, right when Dreylin's army is shrunken, spread out, and he doesn't have much culture to fight in. Scooter's going to have to war with Dreylin sooner or later; can't win without taking the first-place power down a notch, and Scooter definitely wants to win, not just place.

On the other hand, waiting would probably let Scooter fight at a tech advantage. It's mainly a question of whether it's worth giving Dreylin time to consolidate his gains