[LURKERS] Mr. Gradgrind's Review

[BRickAstley]

Brick's the dictator here, it should probably come from him.

For reference:

Turnsplit should go 1-2-1 in the modern era. In the 1st players 'second turn' he's allowed to micro his cities and workers but move no other units.

The objective is to minimize the advantage of the 2nd player air-pillaging improvements/resources and then the turn rolling before player 1 can fix things. REM brought up the issue earlier in his thread and asked the lurkers to discuss.

I am in agreeance that this is a good idea, but how do we handle the problem of the turn timer? Let's say 2nd player plays his turn with 30 minutes left. Does he then pause it every turn until 1st player has logged in to check and make sure he doesn't need to make any reactionary moves? Is 1st player responsible for hitting that small window to keep the game rolling at a good pace? Is 2nd player required to play his turn with at least 6 hours left so 1st player has that reactionary time built in? My first reaction is no to all of those but then we lack a concrete way to handle it.

I think we need a clear solution before making this an official part of the game rules.

[Tohron]

I am in agreeance that this is a good idea, but how do we handle the problem of the turn timer? Let's say 2nd player plays his turn with 30 minutes left. Does he then pause it every turn until 1st player has logged in to check and make sure he doesn't need to make any reactionary moves? Is 1st player responsible for hitting that small window to keep the game rolling at a good pace? Is 2nd player required to play his turn with at least 6 hours left so 1st player has that reactionary time built in? My first reaction is no to all of those but then we lack a concrete way to handle it.

I think we need a clear solution before making this an official part of the game rules.

Perhaps you could adjust the setup of the turn timer whenever a turnsplit is needed, so that the "First Player" in your example can play the end of one turn, then the turn rolls shortly afterward and they can play the beginning of their next turn? This would require careful coordination with everyone involved in a turnsplit, but it seems doable.

[Zalson]

Is 1st player responsible for hitting that small window to keep the game rolling at a good pace?

I think that this is the responsibility of the 1st player. If they can't get in before end turn to reconnect their oil, then they should request a pause -- as they would for other actions in game where they're not able to complete it before the turn updates.

I think the larger questions is: do the players want us to rule on this in the first place? Air power is extremely powerful and should be prioritized -- adding this rule seems to be punishing players who have gained an advantage.

Just trying to add an opposing opinion to the discussion.

[BRickAstley]

The problem is that we can't put this up to player opinion or vote midgame; desires will certainly be influenced by position and current capabilities.

[Zalson]

I don't think the players should make the call. I've edited my previous post to make it clearer. #typos

I was more posing the question of "why are we deciding this, anyway?" Then I remembered that REM saw this as a potential issue and asked us to help out...

I think the point still stands that adding a 1-2-1 rule punishes a player who has gained an advantage. I do understand the argument on the other side (which is that the advantage, if pressed, is impossible to counter).

[Ichabod]

My personal opinion is that a reload should have been granted, according to the rules. But I understand the difficulty of the situation and Brick's decision (I'll never again admin one of these games, for instance). I just fear that, in similar circumnstances, more vocal players would get the reload that REM didn't get, because he's being reasonable about it.

[The Black Sword]

In general if there is only one war in progress then turn times should be very similar. Player 1 can play both of his slots at once: Fix Workers -> Roll Turn -> Play next turn -> 12 hours for Player 2 -> 12 hours for Player 1 to repeat. It's more complicated if there are 2 wars at once but it should be no more difficult than 1-2 splits to manage. Players can use pauses or lengthen the timer to whatever is comfortable.

I think the point still stands that adding a 1-2-1 rule punishes a player who has gained an advantage. I do understand the argument on the other side (which is that the advantage, if pressed, is impossible to counter)..

It's not that the advantage is impossible to counter, it's that the advantage is dependent on which part of the turnsplit you are in. We're not just talking about air power vs no air power here btw, this is still the case for air power vs air power, whoever is in the 2nd slot has a massive edge. (Interception has too many problems to be a cost-effective defense against bombing raids).

[ipecac]

I think the point still stands that adding a 1-2-1 rule punishes a player who has gained an advantage.

Alternatively, insisting on a strict turn split punishes the first player too greatly, given air power.

I think we need a clear solution before making this an official part of the game rules.

While I take TBS' point about general bombing of improvements, it is not that unbalancing and also not a point that any player has brought up. So I propose just 'No bombing of land oil'.

[GermanJoey]

Brick's the dictator here, it should probably come from him.

Three cheers for making Brick do more dirty work!

I think the point still stands that adding a 1-2-1 rule punishes a player who has gained an advantage.

Alternatively, insisting on a strict turn split punishes the first player too greatly, given air power.

I think we need a clear solution before making this an official part of the game rules.

While I take TBS' point about general bombing of improvements, it is not that unbalancing and also not a point that any player has brought up. So I propose just 'No bombing of land oil'.

Have you ever read his or OH's PB18 thread? It can get pretty ridiculously brutal. Also, coal is just as important as oil.

[BRickAstley]

Ha Yeah I don't have enough to do