[LURKERS] Mr. Gradgrind's Review

[The Black Sword]

While I take TBS' point about general bombing of improvements, it is not that unbalancing and also not a point that any player has brought up. So I propose just 'No bombing of land oil'.

Where do you stop though? Coal, other strat resources, happy resources, health resources, corp resources? And if you ban bombing these stuff then you really are nerfing air power.

Bomb a workshop in a factory city and you go from working a 2/8 tile to a 2/0 tile and you can't change anything before the turn rolls. Well 8h is pretty minor in the scheme of things, but what if you have 10 planes costing 80hpt, due to turn order? And again it is very frustrating to play against.

I don't think we should expect the players to bring these things up, they probably haven't played this type of game before and by the time it does come up they could be biased about it.

[MJW (ya that one)]

My personal opinion is that a reload should have been granted, according to the rules. But I understand the difficulty of the situation and Brick's decision (I'll never again admin one of these games, for instance). I just fear that, in similar circumnstances, more vocal players would get the reload that REM didn't get, because he's being reasonable about it.

The rule says that double-moves aren't allowed. The fact that BGN would have to give REM a one-turn warning doesn't matter.

I suggest in this happens in the future that the BGN-player contacts Brick privately and have Brick pause the game.

I think TBS's 1-2-1 rule, or something like it, is needed to stop one player from getting an edge. If it turns this into a de facto PBEM game so be it.

[BRickAstley]

But even that is muddled by the fact that REM had already logged for half an hour and played, and made changes to his civ that resulted in score changes.... And he and other players have been bitten with the 'Oops I forgot to end turn' bug throughout this game, so how was BGN to know for sure or not when the turn time is close to expiring anyways.

That said, it would definitely have helped prevented issues if BGN had contacted me beforehand, even if I don't think it necessarily required in this situation.

And I do appreciate the respectful disagreements. It's not easy to adjucate these things and different views are always helpful for me to know how to better handle things in the future. Just also keep in mind that I've made a decision and going back on this particular one now would cause endless more problems, so all this discussion is theoretical/future-oriented.

[MJW (ya that one)]

But even that is muddled by the fact that REM had already logged for half an hour and played, and made changes to his civ that resulted in score changes.... And he and other players have been bitten with the 'Oops I forgot to end turn' bug throughout this game, so how was BGN to know for sure or not when the turn time is close to expiring anyways.

That said, it would definitely have helped prevented issues if BGN had contacted me beforehand, even if I don't think it necessarily required in this situation.

And I do appreciate the respectful disagreements. It's not easy to adjucate these things and different views are always helpful for me to know how to better handle things in the future. Just also keep in mind that I've made a decision and going back on this particular one now would cause endless more problems, so all this discussion is theoretical/future-oriented.

Okay I read his thread and BGN thought he wasn't double-moving REM. I would say the rule as written that doesn't matter and BGN still broke the rule. The rule just says "double-moves aren't allowed". I would rule that reloading and having BGN playing first is the right call. If I where REM I would even argue that BGN gained information so even that isn't fair so I should have to right to go first, it's BGN's fault for breaking the rules and he should have contacted the GM.

I do agree that it's too late to go back and the mod being questioned publicly is bad.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Sorry to hear that REM, I hope it doesn't kill all interest in the game for you. I think you've played super well and are still very much in it no matter what!

If it's any consolation, if it wasn't for the facts that there was no official turn split preceding this AND that there were other critical turns/battles played since then that would be removed, I probably would have been okay with a reload. There were just so many factors to consider and muddled-togetherness that I felt it would be too interfering to do anything but play on here. Hope that might help restore some hope/confidence.

Although actually I still question that, as in its most basic form this is with the play on an opponent plays after me, turn roll, then they play before me. I thought that was the basis of any turn split.

Dig deeper and it is worse though, as I am out of position and had moved most of my units anticipating making him think twice about declaring war on me.

But this is why I think it may be best if I bow out. I'm thinkig about this far too much.

Edit: I wouldn't have made this post if I knew about his medical issues. I don't delete posts due to thread subscribers.

[Ichabod]

What frustrates me is that I'm sure every other player would be singing a different tune if it was REM double-moving BGN, in a similar situation. Just because REM is near (or is actually) the leader, this is being used as a way to get advantages in the game. Otherwise, everyone would be keen for a reload.

REM didn't end turn, BGN couldn't have attacked him according to the rules. It doesn't matter what BGN thought. I'm sure he didn't have any mean intentions, but he still broke the rules as written. There's no valid interpretation where he played according to the rules.

So, the player who didn't break the rules is being told to play on, just because the other players don't want to be inconvinienced? I really dislike this approach.

[BRickAstley]

I certainly did not make this decision just to avoid inconveniencing the other players.

[Ichabod]

I certainly did not make this decision just to avoid inconveniencing the other players.

I understand and I sincerely think that you did what you thought was the better/fairer decision and that, in your position, there wasn't a perfect decision. Each decision had its own problems. My criticism is mostly directed to the other players.

Better to let the issue rest, but I just wanted to voice my opinion on the matter. Insisting on this will only result in bad feelings now and possibly after the game.

[ipecac]

Have you ever read his or OH's PB18 thread? It can get pretty ridiculously brutal.

Yeah but I tended to skim over some parts to get to the juicy bits.

Where do you stop though? Coal, other strat resources, happy resources, health resources, corp resources? And if you ban bombing these stuff then you really are nerfing air power.

Bomb a workshop in a factory city and you go from working a 2/8 tile to a 2/0 tile and you can't change anything before the turn rolls. Well 8h is pretty minor in the scheme of things, but what if you have 10 planes costing 80hpt, due to turn order? And again it is very frustrating to play against.

I don't think we should expect the players to bring these things up, they probably haven't played this type of game before and by the time it does come up they could be biased about it.

Sure, but the larger and more complicated the rule change the harder it is going to be to get consensus on it by the players. That's why I stop at a very conservative and small change that only addresses the concern a player brought up, and nothing else: it's much less messy and more likely to be accepted.

[The Black Sword]

I guess you could just present both options to the players and let them choose. For me the benefits of 1-2-1 easily outweight the extra complexity.