Races, Units, Buildings

[Bogus]

Also, I reconsidered Dark Elf priests and made them cost 120. While the base cost is too cheap, 50% more is definitely not worth it for an extra 2 ranged attack (unlike on other units that do not have any to begin with, this just improves the strength of an existing one).

not sure this line of reasoning is valid. a weaker ranged attack is easier to block than a stronger one. in other words, those 2 extra rolls are almost guaranteed to cause damage if they hit, the same rolls on a spearman unit will face defense rolls and likely fail.

[Seravy]

Also, I reconsidered Dark Elf priests and made them cost 120. While the base cost is too cheap, 50% more is definitely not worth it for an extra 2 ranged attack (unlike on other units that do not have any to begin with, this just improves the strength of an existing one).

not sure this line of reasoning is valid. a weaker ranged attack is easier to block than a stronger one. in other words, those 2 extra rolls are almost guaranteed to cause damage if they hit, the same rolls on a spearman unit will face defense rolls and likely fail.

What I mean is, you're paying the extra cost because your otherwise melee units can shoot. Which is a huge advantage because they can both fight back against ranged enemies and do damage to a melee army before they engage. It adds a new function to the unit it doesn't normally have.
On priests, this is not true. Yes they will be doing more damage but they could do damage to begin with. Furthermore, we're talking about priests. People usually buy these to purify, heal armies in battle and in overland. Having to pay 50% extra for the presence of +2 ranged would make them strictly inferior in all cases when you intend to use them to heal or purify. Do you produce priests or warlocks if you wanted to do damage?
I'm not saying more damage is not a benefit, but it's not enough of a benefit to raise the cost by 50%.
Just look at how much better a Dark Elf Cavalry is compared to a High Men cavalry. Then compare the priests and you'll see why it can't be the same modifier.

[namad]

I saw halberdiers were in blue still, my two cents on them is that perhaps it is acceptable for any halberdier that is already decent against calavry to not get negates first strike (like for example if they already have thrown or breath? it's literally the only argument I can think of in favor of not standardizing them, although I'm 100% fine with standardization as well)... the key feature of the unit is that long sticks countered horses historically.

edit: also shaman need an ammo listed on page 1
Shaman
Cost : 50
Melee Attack : 2
Ranged Attack : 3

Barbarian's cannot have temple as a forbidden building because it does not exist:
Forbidden Buildings : Builder's Hall, Temple, Miner's Guild, Library, Fantastic Stables, Armorer's Guild, Colossuem

[Seravy]

At the moment these Halberidiers have Negate First Strike :
Dwarf (+1 health)
Gnoll (+2 atk)
High Elf (+1 hit)
Klackon (+2 def)
Lizardmen (+1 health)
Trolls (regenerate)

And these don't :
Beastmen (+1 health)
Dark Elf (ranged)
Draconian (breath, flight)
Orcs

The exception for beastmen and orcs makes no sense. Dark Elves and Draconians do (they have ranged or breath) though.

Edit : fixed the outdated information in the first posts.

I'm having some doubts about Lizardmen still. While their base population growth is huge, due to no Builder's Hall, their housing speed is not that outstanding. Haven't had time to play them since the last few months of AI improvements.

[zitro1987]

Lizardmen are good thanks to durable swordsmen (early) and relatively cheap and versatile javalineers. 400 cost to get to dragon turtles is a drag for a slightly better unit than javalineers because their attack rating is so terrible (thankfully they only cost 100)

I'd recomend giving Turtles +1 to hit and 120-130 cost.

[Seravy]

Lizardmen are good thanks to durable swordsmen (early) and relatively cheap and versatile javalineers. 400 cost to get to dragon turtles is a drag for a slightly better unit than javalineers because their attack rating is so terrible (thankfully they only cost 100)

I'd recomend giving Turtles +1 to hit and 120-130 cost.

I want to keep turtles at low damage, while being hard to kill - like Golems without magic immunity. If a buff is needed, I prefer to increase armor and/or health, although they are already identical to a Golem's for almost half the production cost (even their attack is similar, Golems have 14, Turtles have 10+5), it might not be enough. Maybe 10 armor instead of 9? idk, 9 armor and 20 health is already a huge amount, especially for that cost.

[namad]

I think Parthenon and Cathedral are too low maintenance compared to things like sage's guild.

Why does the less flexible research require much higher maintenance than the raw power? The raw power also being easier to boost with say dark rituals or cult leader. Maybe either reduce research building's maintenance or increase religious buildings maintenance?

I am aware the sage's guild and university are more production/hammers efficient so maybe that is the trade off? faster build time versus higher maintenance cost? Even still power is a lot more versatile than research so I think maintenance needs looked at again on religion.

[Seravy]

I think Parthenon and Cathedral are too low maintenance compared to things like sage's guild.

Why does the less flexible research require much higher maintenance than the raw power? The raw power also being easier to boost with say dark rituals or cult leader. Maybe either reduce research building's maintenance or increase religious buildings maintenance?

I am aware the sage's guild and university are more production/hammers efficient so maybe that is the trade off? faster build time versus higher maintenance cost? Even still power is a lot more versatile than research so I think maintenance needs looked at again on religion.

Religion maintenance is low to compere reasonably with Wizard's Guild.
WG is 60 hammers/power while Cathedral is 75. WG unlocks magicians and adds 3 research, Cathedral does not. So Cathedral has less maintenance and reduces unrest.

[namad]

I think Parthenon and Cathedral are too low maintenance compared to things like sage's guild.

Why does the less flexible research require much higher maintenance than the raw power? The raw power also being easier to boost with say dark rituals or cult leader. Maybe either reduce research building's maintenance or increase religious buildings maintenance?

I am aware the sage's guild and university are more production/hammers efficient so maybe that is the trade off? faster build time versus higher maintenance cost? Even still power is a lot more versatile than research so I think maintenance needs looked at again on religion.

Religion maintenance is low to compere reasonably with Wizard's Guild.
WG is 60 hammers/power while Cathedral is 75. WG unlocks magicians and adds 3 research, Cathedral does not. So Cathedral has less maintenance and reduces unrest.

That doesn't really address the high maintenance cost of the sage's guild or university. Neither of which grant you a military unit. Yes they're more hammer efficient, but research is not as good as raw power. I can see how it might be useful and interesting to decide to waste maintenance long term for a better hammer to research conversion ratio, but in the late game I tend to just pickup the religious buildings before the sage's guild.

A nightshade ends up making a cathedral just better for power than a magician's guild at least in terms of hammers/gold. Cult Leader does the same. Both or more bonuses end up meaning that the only reason to build research structures is if you need them as a pre-requirement for something else. Maybe that's what you're looking for though. I guess I'm just comparing too much with vanilla MoM where the research structures give you a lot more research for a lot fewer hammers/gold than the religious buildings do. Because power is a lot better than research and unrest reduction is much more useful in vanilla MoM than in your mod (because high taxes have diminishing returns much faster in the mod)

[Seravy]

I think Parthenon and Cathedral are too low maintenance compared to things like sage's guild.

Why does the less flexible research require much higher maintenance than the raw power? The raw power also being easier to boost with say dark rituals or cult leader. Maybe either reduce research building's maintenance or increase religious buildings maintenance?

I am aware the sage's guild and university are more production/hammers efficient so maybe that is the trade off? faster build time versus higher maintenance cost? Even still power is a lot more versatile than research so I think maintenance needs looked at again on religion.

Religion maintenance is low to compere reasonably with Wizard's Guild.
WG is 60 hammers/power while Cathedral is 75. WG unlocks magicians and adds 3 research, Cathedral does not. So Cathedral has less maintenance and reduces unrest.

That doesn't really address the high maintenance cost of the sage's guild or university. Neither of which grant you a military unit. Yes they're more hammer efficient, but research is not as good as raw power. I can see how it might be useful and interesting to decide to waste maintenance long term for a better hammer to research conversion ratio, but in the late game I tend to just pickup the religious buildings before the sage's guild.

A nightshade ends up making a cathedral just better for power than a magician's guild at least in terms of hammers/gold. Cult Leader does the same. Both or more bonuses end up meaning that the only reason to build research structures is if you need them as a pre-requirement for something else. Maybe that's what you're looking for though. I guess I'm just comparing too much with vanilla MoM where the research structures give you a lot more research for a lot fewer hammers/gold than the religious buildings do. Because power is a lot better than research and unrest reduction is much more useful in vanilla MoM than in your mod (because high taxes have diminishing returns much faster in the mod)

I think the main problem here is Cathedrals have been improved since the maintenance was set. They didn't have the Nightshade bonus when I decided on that. Also, Cathedrals used to be 5 power prior to the removal of the Temple. Nightshade requires the Alchemist Guild to work though which costs 3 to maintain.

I think you are right, some change to maintenance costs is needed.
University and Parthenon should probably cost 2 each (Parthenon is better but University unlocks Mechanician's Guild so same price is fair). Cathedrals probably shouldn't be more than 2 as well otherwise they become worse in maintenance/resource produced than Wizard's Guild.

Anyway, let's look at the data, I'm going to assume 1 unrest reduction is worth 1 resource.

WG : 50 hammers/resource, 0.5 maintenance / resource.
Shrine : 40 hammers/resource, 0.33 maintenance / resource. Cheapest but it's the most basic building with the lowest output, so it's fine.
Cathedral : 75 hammers/resource by default, but can be far better if Nightshade or Cult Leader. 0.14 maintenance / resource : way too low even if it's intended to be cheap. Twice as much sounds more appropriate.
Parthenon : 40 hammers/resource, 0.20 maintenance/resource. Efficient, but maintenance is indeed too low.
Sage's Guild : 33 hammers/resource, far the best so far. 0.44 maintenance / resource, cheaper than WG but more expensive than religion. That's about where I intend this to be, best hammer efficiency but more limited use.
University : 28 hammers/resource, but this produces less total than Sage's Guild and is only available to advanced races. 0.6 maintenance/ resource is actually the worst, however, University unlocks an important building on top of being the cheapest hammers/resource.
So yes, I think it should be 2 for Cathedral and Parthenon, probably no change for University though.