[spoilers] DTG thinks filthy casuals are ruining Realms Beyond

[picklepikkl]

So assuming that El Grillo's work is accepted, it would appear we're at the most awkward spot of a snake pick: smack in the middle. On the plus side, RTR has flattened the power curve of leaders -- I actually expect some of the people ahead of us to pick Inca or Zulu, maybe even India, and count on getting an acceptable leader to synergize with their UB/UU on the wheel -- so it's not like we're missing out on Pacal/Joao/Willem-tier picks by being sixth. We're probably too early in the pick order to take an Industrious gamble, too. Shame -- I actually really liked the notion of going cheap forges with an eye to the hammer economy techs. It would have been something different.

I do hope the map isn't as heavily mirrored as PBEM74's, though, so we don't see monotony in civ selection based on starting techs (also because it makes the landgrab phase less interesting, from my perspective). But the proper response to the gift of many hours of work is "thank you, greenline," not "you didn't cater to my tastes," so I will strive to approach whatever we get with an open mind.

[DTG]

So assuming that El Grillo's work is accepted, it would appear we're at the most awkward spot of a snake pick: smack in the middle. On the plus side, RTR has flattened the power curve of leaders -- I actually expect some of the people ahead of us to pick Inca or Zulu, maybe even India, and count on getting an acceptable leader to synergize with their UB/UU on the wheel -- so it's not like we're missing out on Pacal/Joao/Willem-tier picks by being sixth. We're probably too early in the pick order to take an Industrious gamble, too. Shame -- I actually really liked the notion of going cheap forges with an eye to the hammer economy techs. It would have been something different.

Yep, it's definitely awkward. We can always pick up a good civ if the others grab our preferred leaders of choice.

Being 6th in the pick really just means that we need to choose something safe or solid or flexible on the initial run through, rather than gambling on something gimicky (e.g. picking a good Financial leader whilst praying that Portugal will still be available after the snake pick swings back). Industrious probably falls into this category, as you say. Of course, we should also pick something that's going to be fun to play.

I do hope the map isn't as heavily mirrored as PBEM74's, though, so we don't see monotony in civ selection based on starting techs (also because it makes the landgrab phase less interesting, from my perspective). But the proper response to the gift of many hours of work is "thank you, greenline," not "you didn't cater to my tastes," so I will strive to approach whatever we get with an open mind.

I think this is what most people hope for. Then, when they are presented with a non-mirrored map, they spend half their threads bitching about how much better their opponents land is and how the mapmaker has it out for them. I agree, though, that it is the variety and choices that make maps interesting. Well, that and a good understanding of resource balancing (lush, but not stupidly so, otherwise settling another city automatically becomes the One Right Answer).

[greenline]

your start



tiles in the fat cross of where the settler is now aren't subject to change

fog gazing is like playing sonic 06. you think it'll be a fun time for the wrong reasons, but it won't

[picklepikkl]

Huh, do cities on hills chain irrigation?

Probably worth a first Scout move to the forest hill S of the cows just to check, but we're obviously intended to SIP. I'm not sure if it would be better to start with two of (Hunting/Agriculture/Mining) and go up the BW track or two of (Hunting/Agriculture/Wheel) and go for quick Pottery and road networking. The benefits of early religion are also worth thinking about for a 12 player game -- Celts start with Mysticism/Hunting, their UB synergizes well with Protective for cheap granaries, and Swordsmen are much better in RTR, though I guess starting with Mysticism is only a selling point if you were interested in going religion first like an absolute loon.

Borsche first-picked Mehmed, which I have some trouble understanding. Mehmed is fine, but he doesn't yell PICK ME FIRST OR BE FOREVER SCREWED. What makes most sense to me is that he has a coast start and wants to double up on seaside bonuses: Expansive for WBs, Organized for Lighthouses.

(Also, thank you greenline for all your work! I know it's been said in the game general thread, but what settings are you able to share? I'm particularly interested in difficulty level and map dimensions.)

[DTG]

Thanks greenline.

Huh, do cities on hills chain irrigation?

Nope, unfortunately. We can farm something via the Lake or river when Civil Service is due.

Probably worth a first Scout move to the forest hill S of the cows just to check, but we're obviously intended to SIP.

I'm thinking about 2S too. It reveals less of the map, but I don't think we're going to give up the extra hammer from a Plains Hill start, and we won't want to abandon the Sheep or Corn in the capital, so... that leaves 1S as the only alternative starting location, unless we gamble and wander (no reason to do this).

It may also be better to simply follow a river in the direction of "good land," so that we know how lush our immediate surroundings are.

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Assuming that we grow to size 3 in the early game:

• Improved Sheep (3F) Corn (3F) Cow (1F, 3H) + CC (2F 2H) = 9F 5H, or 14FHPT. 14 * 7 = 98H, so we'd need ~8 turns to build the first Settler, or 7 with some OF.
  
  
• With Imperialistic, 9F + (5H*1.6) = 9 + 8 = 17FHPT, and 17 * 6 = 102H, so we'd need 6 turns to build Settlers.

Imperialistic means that we can stick at size 3 for longer, building Workers and Settlers, which in turn means that our Workers can go off to improve resource tiles in other new cities.

The maths isn't as neat for Expansive Workers (5H * 1.35 = 6.75 = 6H).

I'm not sure if it would be better to start with two of (Hunting/Agriculture/Mining) and go up the BW track or two of (Hunting/Agriculture/Wheel) and go for quick Pottery and road networking. The benefits of early religion are also worth thinking about for a 12 player game -- Celts start with Mysticism/Hunting, their UB synergizes well with Protective for cheap granaries, and Swordsmen are much better in RTR, though I guess starting with Mysticism is only a selling point if you were interested in going religion first like an absolute loon.

We need TW early, because we're not on a river or coast and trade routes are too valuable in the early game (2GPT for the second city, 1GPT for each city after that).

We'll want BW before Pottery, for chops and the Slavery revolt.

Mysticism and a religious gambit could be interesting. We could sandbox after the snake picks are made, if our leader and civ have traits suited to the early religious path.

Borsche first-picked Mehmed, which I have some trouble understanding. Mehmed is fine, but he doesn't yell PICK ME FIRST OR BE FOREVER SCREWED. What makes most sense to me is that he has a coast start and wants to double up on seaside bonuses: Expansive for WBs, Organized for Lighthouses.

*ahem*

I don't think Mehmed is as good in RtR as BtS. The cheap Granary and OP whipping are the main reasons why Expansive is a top tier trait in BtS. That said, I agree his start is likely coastal. If not, then it's just to get a production (cheap Workers) + economy (Organized) combination. And I said earlier that Organized looks like a Tier 1 trait in this mod.

[picklepikkl]

Re: Mehmed -- Open mouth, insert foot .

Seriously though, especially with the revelation that the difficulty is Prince, Mehmed is definitely not nearly as dynamite as he can be in BTS (well, as dynamite as non-FIN can be). Julius Caesar now gone, which is one off your shortlist, alas. Maybe another coastal start? The IMP pick certainly implies that people are thinking along your lines. Assuming more do, I expect to see IMP/AGG fall before it gets to us. Maybe IMP/PHI? GPP generation got buffed and this game will certainly last to Universities -- it's also a lategame economic trait to go with the REX power of IMP (speaking of which, how easy is it to get multiples of 5 hammers for settler production with this BFC? I don't have the experience to do the calculations in my head, but it seems very doable).

Off-the-wall idea here: Assuming the obvious power civs are gone, how does this start look for India? Five of the forests are hills, meaning that move+chop isn't possible, but that still leaves three, and even if hill forests don't show off full FW power, the ability to post-chop move+mine might be relevant for economizing worker turns down the line.

[picklepikkl]

Well, Zulu has fallen. That's one obvious power civ gone. (By the way, if you liked the sound of going PHI, Korea seems like an excellent civ to pair with it, for the seowon unique university and Agriculture/Mining starting techs. The hwacha ain't a waste of space either.)

I also took a stab at making a sandbox, here, in case you want to play around with different tech paths/tile improvement orders. I don't know what your view is on simming stuff out for what is supposedly a casual game; I'm happy to take on the scutwork of keeping an up-to-date sandbox, if that'll help.

[DTG]

Julius Caesar now gone, which is one off your shortlist, alas. Maybe another coastal start? The IMP pick certainly implies that people are thinking along your lines. Assuming more do, I expect to see IMP/AGG fall before it gets to us.

Yep, Julius Caesar was my first pick, and sadly Gawdzak is probably the best player in this PB. Although that does suggest we're thinking the same way about the mod.

Genghis is still possible, especially now that Zulu is off the table and he becomes a bit less attractive to other teams early in the pick (though there are still other good civs that synergize well new Aggressive buffs).

To comment on your other suggestions:

• IMP/PHI: could be a good second pick, if we opt for a good civ first. It's very front-loaded, though. I see the main advantage of Philosophical in blazing ahead to a good Medieval or Renaissance tech, because by the end of the game the extra 3–6 Great People gained are worth less than the cumulative power of Org or Fin.
  
• India: worth considering.
  
• Korea: I'm not a big fan of the Seowon (Russia's new Research Institute is better) or Hwachas (easy to counter these with HArchers or Xbows, and better UU out there).

(speaking of which, how easy is it to get multiples of 5 hammers for settler production with this BFC? I don't have the experience to do the calculations in my head, but it seems very doable).

Well, I haven't played RtR, but the main benefits should come via whipping Settlers: 1-pop ---> 48FH; 2-pop ---> 80FH. We then slow build everything else.

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I'm currently also thinking about the following:

• Victoria: IMP/FIN. I think FIN is weaker than ORG, but if the difficulty is Prince and if the "water presence: significant," then FIN will buff a lot of coastal tiles.
  
• Inca: the other power civ, after Zulu. Cheap military police and culture via the Granary is very strong.
  
• Augustus: good leader if we pick India first and he's still available.

I also took a stab at making a sandbox, here, in case you want to play around with different tech paths/tile improvement orders. I don't know what your view is on simming stuff out for what is supposedly a casual game; I'm happy to take on the scutwork of keeping an up-to-date sandbox, if that'll help.

Thanks. Yeah, we should aim to sim a bit, especially at the start. Later, GermanJoey might provide an "official" sim with correct map dimensions.

I'm usually too lazy to make large-scale sims and just focus upon opening turns, micro for individual cities, and figuring out the best way to attack or defend. I think that is casual enough.

[DTG]

1. Borsche - Mehmed II of XXX
2. Gawdzawk/Chumchu - Julius Caesar of XXX
3. GSorel/DMOC/Ichabod - XXX of Zulu
4. Nicolea Carpathia - Brennus of XXX
5. Elkad - Asoka of XXX
6. DTG/picklepikkl - XXX of XXX - UP!
7. OT4E - XXX of XXX - ON DECK!
8. wetbandit/ipecac - XXX of XXX
9. StarDoor - XXX of XXX
10. dcodea - XXX of XXX
11. NylesStandish - XXX of XXX
12. pindicator - XXX of XXX

Traits

3x Organized
2x Spiritual
1x Imperialistic
1x Charismatic

Civs

Zulu

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Shall we go with the Inca? There are a several good Protective leaders that we could pick for synergy with the Terrace (Mao/Wang/Sitting Bull) and I don't think all three will go by the time the snake gets back round to us.

edit: I know this renders all the talk of Imperialistic null and void. But I think a quasi-Creative trait would more than compensate.

[picklepikkl]

I'm happy to take Inca, but it's your call; for all that I keep proposing ideas boldly, I'm very aware of the fact that I lack knowledge and experience when it comes to this game.

I guess to play devil's advocate: if you knew for a fact that Mao/Wang Kon/Sitting Bull would all be gone by the time the choice got back to us, would you still be happy with Inca? If so, let's definitely go for it; if not, and your goal is to "maximize your expected value" as opposed to "2nd place is as good as last" I guess I'd advise you to think about taking something safer.