[spoilers] DTG thinks filthy casuals are ruining Realms Beyond

[DTG]

I'm happy to take Inca, but it's your call; for all that I keep proposing ideas boldly, I'm very aware of the fact that I lack knowledge and experience when it comes to this game.

I guess to play devil's advocate: if you knew for a fact that Mao/Wang Kon/Sitting Bull would all be gone by the time the choice got back to us, would you still be happy with Inca? If so, let's definitely go for it; if not, and your goal is to "maximize your expected value" as opposed to "2nd place is as good as last" I guess I'd advise you to think about taking something safer.

I think it will be fine; Qin might work as well, especially if teams lower down the pick avoid Industrious. That would give us four decent Protective leaders to choose from, and there are plenty of other, better options out there for the teams that aren't playing with the Inca or Celts... Genghis/Victoria/Zara/Frederick/Roosevelt all spring to mind. Plus, if everyone continues to avoid the Creative leaders, then the Terrace will give us a one-up for any culture wars.

[picklepikkl]

Hunh, an Ottoman pick. If I had to guess, they're angling for picking up Shaka on the way back -- cheapen the Hammams with Expansive and strengthen the Janissaries/gain some amount of econ with Aggressive. Agriculture/Wheel, so starting inland like us. No Industrious yet, so I guess everyone else is thinking like us and trying to avoid committing to it until everyone else is locked out. That's an aspect whereby picking a civ first comes in handy, I suppose.

EDIT: And now a China pick, which I assume is just for the starting techs? I guess Cho-Ko-Nus are pretty good, but it still surprises me quite a bit. Not sure how to read that.

[DTG]

EDIT: And now a China pick, which I assume is just for the starting techs? I guess Cho-Ko-Nus are pretty good, but it still surprises me quite a bit. Not sure how to read that.

ipecac has played as China before, in PBEM 66, and wetbandit got steamrolled by Commodore's Cho-Ko-Nus in PBEM 64. It's a civ with good starting techs and a decent/fun UU that remains useful through to the Renaissance.

Current teams:

1. Borsche - Mehmed II of XXX
2. Gawdzawk/Chumchu - Julius Caesar of XXX
3. GSorel/DMOC/Ichabod - XXX of Zulu
4. Nicolea Carpathia - Brennus of XXX
5. Elkad - Asoka of XXX
6. DTG/picklepikkl - XXX of Inca
7. OT4E - XXX of Ottomans
8. wetbandit/ipecac - XXX of China
9. StarDoor - Shaka of XXX
10. dcodea - Joao II of XXX
11. NylesStandish - Wang Kon of XXX
12. pindicator - Suryavarman II of India

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wetbandit/ipecac and OT4E pick leaders before us. I'm leaning towards Mao > Qin > Sitting Bull, due to the large map settings, but I would be happy with any of these really.

[picklepikkl]

I confess myself somewhat confused that the snake pick suddenly split into two, but I guess it makes sense -- the people picking civs and the people picking leaders on the way back aren't exactly in competition.

Re: China -- Huh, OK. I guess I was thrown off by the fact that I rarely see Crossbows in RB games, but if CKNs are significantly better and change the tactical landscape, that's a good reason to play China.

Re: Mao -- Expansive/Protective/Pseudocreative does seem pretty good, so I think we made out well . Would you have preferred Wang Kon, or was Mao your first choice to pair with terraces? That +35% is going to make me twitch on "maximizing efficiency" grounds, though, given that it's a hard number to make come out even. Also, I guess I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that, unless team gsorel goes for AGG/IND and forsakes an expansion trait, OT4E successfully monopolized Industrious, but with 12 players he certainly can't just run the table on wonders.

Unrelatedly, I find it kind of frustrating that the Civ franchise is willing to include Mao and Stalin, but Hitler is just off-limits.

Looking forward to seeing the full slate of picks when 'tis all said and done

[DTG]

Re: China -- Huh, OK. I guess I was thrown off by the fact that I rarely see Crossbows in RB games, but if CKNs are significantly better and change the tactical landscape, that's a good reason to play China.

Personally, I think they're fun to use and a pain to counter, but not game-changing unless you're on a cramped map and can beeline them. What is cool is that they can attack directly from boats and still cause collateral.

Re: Mao -- Expansive/Protective/Pseudocreative does seem pretty good, so I think we made out well . Would you have preferred Wang Kon, or was Mao your first choice to pair with terraces?

Yep, I think we did great. 6th pick was awkward, but we were lucky to be able to grab Inca. It's also nice to see that a non-Organized civ took the Aztecs. Organized Sacrificial Altars seem very good.

I think, micro headaches aside, we'll be glad to play with Mao, because it's going to make the early set-up period more straightforward, Mao has lots of cheap economic buildings throughout the game, and this doesn't lock us into a Cottage spam approach (which I'm not sure is optimal will be optimal, what with the buffed Workshops).

That +35% is going to make me twitch on "maximizing efficiency" grounds, though, given that it's a hard number to make come out even. Also, I guess I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that, unless team gsorel goes for AGG/IND and forsakes an expansion trait, OT4E successfully monopolized Industrious, but with 12 players he certainly can't just run the table on wonders.

I don't think AGG/IND exists, does it? Regardless, OT4E has a really good leader/civ combo.

Looking forward to seeing the full slate of picks when 'tis all said and done

Want to group them into "great," "good," "huh?" categories?

[AdrienIer]

Re: China -- Huh, OK. I guess I was thrown off by the fact that I rarely see Crossbows in RB games, but if CKNs are significantly better and change the tactical landscape, that's a good reason to play China.

Personally, I think they're fun to use and a pain to counter, but not game-changing unless you're on a cramped map and can beeline them. What is cool is that they can attack directly from boats and still cause collateral.

It also counts as a strong stack softener, the difference between 4 and 6 strength is pretty important

That +35% is going to make me twitch on "maximizing efficiency" grounds, though, given that it's a hard number to make come out even. Also, I guess I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the fact that, unless team gsorel goes for AGG/IND and forsakes an expansion trait, OT4E successfully monopolized Industrious, but with 12 players he certainly can't just run the table on wonders.

I don't think AGG/IND exists, does it? Regardless, OT4E has a really good leader/civ combo.

Agg/Ind is Stalin

[picklepikkl]

AdrienIer has the right of it; thinking about that possibility is why I went off on a tangent about acceptable leaders. However, team gsorel shunned the morally complex choice of Stalin for that unambiguously heroic figure, Genghis Khan.

Regarding grouping the eventual picks: that does sound entertaining, but the discussion lately in this thread gives me no faith in my ability to produce rankings with any resemblance to accuracy

[GermanJoey]

That +35% is going to make me twitch on "maximizing efficiency" grounds, though, given that it's a hard number to make come out even.

You get one freebie every 3 base hammers, and then another every 20.

[picklepikkl]

Thanks, GJ I guess if I just grit my teeth and pretend it's +33% with occasional upside, it'll be easier to handle.

Final lineup:

1. Borsche - Mehmed II of Carthage
2. Gawdzak/Chumchu - Julius Caesar of Russia
3. GSorel/DMOC/Ichabod - Genghis Khan of Zulu
4. Nicolea Carpathia - Brennus of Korea
5. Elkad - Asoka of Sumeria
6. DTG/picklepikkl - Mao Zedong of Inca
7. OT4E - Bismark of Ottomans
8. wetbandit/ipecac - Winston Churchill of China
9. StarDoor - Shaka of Arabia
10. dcodea - Joao II of Khmer
11. NylesStandish - Wang Kon of Aztecs
12. pindicator - Suryavarman II of India

Mehmed II of Carthage: This pick is fine, I guess; not awe-inspiring, but not bad. Half-price Cothon spam is a strong play if you can leverage it. The thing that really raises my eyebrows about this is the fact that Borsche is the only one to pick Fishing as a starting tech -- I'd have expected that either multiple people have coastal starts or nobody does (maybe other people do but intend to go Worker-first while teching Fishing?).

Julius Caesar of Russia: I really like this combo. IMP to get ahead on colonization, ORG to sustain it better, and two Renaissance-era uniques to give a shot in the arm as IMP's usefulness dries up.

Genghis Khan of Zulu: This is another very good combo (probably my top overall) that is very similar to the last, albeit without the lategame punch and with a little more early-to-midgame efficiency/threat factor. Hoping to not start near either of them.

Brennus of Korea: I don't understand this combo. There's no expansion boost, plus the civ uniques don't seem to synergize with the traits. Am I missing something?

Asoka of Sumeria: I originally thought this was a lot worse, but then I remembered that Asoka is SPI/ORG; it's Gandhi who's SPI/PHI. With that in mind, it becomes a lot more clear: this pick sacrifices early game speediness for the sake of sustainability and long-term advantage through serious-discount Courthouses. My experience in PBEM74B has kind of soured me on this strategy, but it certainly can be done better than I did! I just hope we're one of his neighbors and can grab more than our fair share

Mao Zedong of Inca: I'm very happy with our pick. We were lucky to grab Inca when we did -- we're essentially playing BTS Sury, albeit with a weaker Creative side and a stronger Expansive side. Make workers, make granaries, whip it good, expand expand expand while working improved tiles everywhere.

Bismarck of Ottomans: Respectable bonuses on the face of it, but deserves extra consideration by virtue of being the lone Industrious leader. Forges are expensive, yo, and expansive hammams are a neat trick for pulling in extra tiles to work.

Winston Churchill of China: god in heaven do I not want to tangle with PRO/CHA Cho-Ko-Nus. He may as well be a balled-up hedgehog during the Middle Ages, and cheap Granaries will help his cities come online sooner. Solid and unique choice.

Shaka of Arabia: Two solid picks that don't have a lot of synergy. EXP is obviously good, AGG is pretty solid here in RTR, and Arabia's cheaper libraries are a pretty nice UB.

Joao II of Khmer: I hereby propose that we refer to dcodea's team solely as Sir Expandalot. Discount Barays are an obvious synergy, EXP/IMP has been a known powerful quantity for as long as it's existed, and, assuming ivory access, Sir Expandalot will be another hard nut to crack for anyone with solely Middle Age tech.

Wang Kon of Aztecs: Not a lot of synergy here, but fine nonetheless. The sole person to go for RTR-FIN, which might indicate another coast-starting person? Aztecs were almost certainly chosen for the sake of Sacrificial Altars, IMO the most unique UB in the game.

Suryarvarman II of India: I like this combo quite a bit. It'll be very awkward while pindicator scrambles for worker tech (India doesn't even start with Mining in RTR, yikes), but Expansive Fast Workers do seem pretty nice, and being the game's sole Creative gives him an advantage in settling flexibility.

In conclusion: Almost entirely solid, one that makes me go "huh?", a few exceptionally good ones.

(I also updated the sandbox: same link as before.)

[greenline]

Unrelatedly, I find it kind of frustrating that the Civ franchise is willing to include Mao and Stalin, but Hitler is just off-limits.

I would imagine selling the game in Germany would be quite difficult if they did include him.