[LURKERS] Mr. Gradgrind's Review

[Tohron]

Regarding the political situation, I'm curious whether people think the AI Diplo-Only rule makes it easier or harder to avoid getting crippled by a 2v1 dogpile scenario. This didn't happen with Dreylin because it became more advantageous for one party to bail out first and tech while leaving the other party fighting the target, rather than a scenario where bailing out would just give the other party the chance to grab all the remaining land.

Personally, I think AI Diplo-Only is pushing things away from crippling 2v1 dogpiles by making it harder to coordinate the kind of attack where the foe is so weak after the first few turns that bailing out is a suboptimal decision. But other people have more experience than me, so I'm curious what they think.

[dcodea]

I think basic self interest - not being able to see an easy path towards quick gains for themselves - was enough to limit this to a "skirmish" rather than a to-the-death dogpile. More diplo wouldn't have changed the basic calculation much, imho - would either REM or Scooter have seen more advantage to continuing to fight? Only if better coordination had somehow enabled them to destroy more of dreylin's army in the first turns, or to attack sooner. But I don't think they really could have pushed it up much, or somehow gotten more of dreylin's forces out of position. And Scooter was able to communicate the timing pretty effectively with the 4g-4g stuff.

But I have even less experience than you! So.

[Gaspar]

Well, one of the primary reasons we moved to AI diplo was specifically to make it harder to coordinate dogpiles. In the early games we played here, this wasn't really relevant because most of them had one player drastically superior to the others, also in the early days we played mostly PBEMs so there frequently weren't enough strong empires to take down the leader. But the combination of more good players and/or larger games led to plenty of situations where being the tall poppy was significantly punished. This game is a classic example - Dreylin was the obvious tall poppy but as it turns out he wasn't actually that much ahead of REM and/or scooter (if at all.) AI Diplo definitely benefits the current leader but while that's less interesting lurking it is actually better game design - playing better should be rewarded! (Decided to use a classic Sullla unnecessary exclamation point there.)

Of course, the main reason we left full diplo were farces like PBEM17s huge NAPstab or PBEM26 where two guys were playing a teamer against 3 guys playing solo. Also in Pitbosses the time sink was out of control - PB3 which basically made everyone want to hang themselves or PB4 which also made everyone want to hang themselves (but simply because of the existence of Lord Parkin.)

Anyway, whatever we lose by playing AI diplo (and I do often think Always War might be superior) is nothing compared to the clusterfuck that is full diplo.

[Fluffball]

Dreylin was the obvious tall poppy but as it turns out he wasn't actually that much ahead of REM and/or scooter (if at all.)

That seems like a ludicrous statement to me. He was working on getting more land than both REM and Scooter combined when they attacked him. AND he was teching at a crazy pace and about to industrialize. If they hadn't attacked him I think the game would have been called about this time.

If Dreylin held your old land, his land, most of DZ's land, having the Kremlin, infantry, combustion, and factories.... no stopping that; game over.

REMs lead is much more manageable now because all 3 players have some what equivalent land/cities/tech. (Although I still think REMs expansion possibilities and superior economy means he should win this.)

[Bobchillingworth]

RB regularly brings back all sorts of dumb concepts we know deep down in our hearts won't end well. Gimmick maps, 30 player pitbosses, Werewolf games with known flakes, Nukes, etc. It says something that we've managed to consistently avoid running full-diplo games for around three years now.


Imagine spending an hour playing a turn each day, plus an additional two hours chatting with strangers over the internet about a video game, only to lose because all of your neighbors were lying and secretly colluding to destroy you for the past month. Absolute fucking misery. Never again.

[Epoxy]

What are REM's chances to take Cats?

I'm impressed with Donovan's mitigating role in Donovanland. Even crippled and incapable of mounting real offensives, with no navy of which to speak of, the cultural dominance of Zoth Ommog alone has stifled the development of Dreylin's gains and produced a very long front there. If Dreylin concentrates they will surely take the city, but it's been a logistical nuisance and handicap for some turns.

Dreylin has roughly two landmasses and one island; their starting landmass, and the current territories in Donovan- and Gasparland. Their ability to retain parity would be assisted by capturing Zoth Ommog promptly. Their greatest weakness is that Combustion is still some distance away—Steel and Railroad still haven't been researched—so they will have drastically reduced ability to raid Scooter's cities once Scooter researches Combustion. This all depends on how long they prosecute this war against REM.

From Scooter's perspective, the problem with allying with either Dreylin or REM against the other is that Scooter will only increase one's strength at the expense of the other, meanwhile at best maintaining parity with that ally. If Scooter + REM attack Dreylin again, and succeed, then Dreylin will be reduced to clear second-tier status and Scooter and REM will remain equal (in the best case from Scooter's perspective; REM can assimilate Dreylin's territory as easily as Scooter can). A joint attack of Scooter + Dreylin against REM won't work for Scooter because they cannot hold REM's territory; they reduce REM's power, increase Dreylin's power, and yet don't increase their own.

The most reliable and directly successful course of action for Scooter would be to engage a joint attack with BGN against Pindicator. It's a way of increasing their own power without affecting the parity of Dreylin and REM. By attacking with BGN Dreylin and REM can't pile on Scooter without considering their own borders with BGN; it reduces Scooter's exposure to attack. However, BGN should be more interested in allying with either Dreylin or REM, as they are the players who can guarantee BGN's own security.

There are lots of details such as pre-emptive strikes and aggressive settling, but it's an entertaining idea. What a game!

[picklepikkl]

I confess that I'm somewhat sad I've never gotten the chance for the full-diplo experience -- I like playing games with people, and while I'm enjoying my PBEM, no opportunity for banter and personality to shine through from my opponents is kind of a bummer. Also, I think it'd be fun to go RP in my official communications.

That said, I am willing to believe people when they tell me it was a fucking miserable experience that caused fplks to hate each other IRL.

[MJW (ya that one)]

The massive time-sink kills full-diplo right there. A gimmick set-up where some talking is possible could work but never full diplo ever. This is also why PMs (and chats) got banned in werewolf.

[LucyFur]

The massive time-sink kills full-diplo right there. A gimmick set-up where some talking is possible could work but never full diplo ever. This is also why PMs (and chats) got banned in werewolf.

Goofy idea: Host a "twitter" game. Each team is allowed one 140-character communication to one other team per day/turn.

[Bobchillingworth]

This is also why PMs (and chats) got banned in werewolf.

Lol, yeah, I forgot we used to allow it in WW too


Also, full diplomacy adds an in-game advantage for out-of-game factors, such as being more proficient at English, having more free time to invest in conversations, and/or living in a timezone conducive to real-time chats with potential partners.